Only the Southern Region really bought DEMUs. There was the Class 210 which in theory was great but got dropped for various reasons, then a gap before the 22x but I don't know the reason for them being DEMUs rather than DMUs.
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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates
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LOL The Irony
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Because it feels half arsed to me. Something doesn't feel right. I'm happy we're getting new trains but I'm not happy with the final product.
Have you ridden in one or is it based on looks alone?
Or order an extra carriage to make them up to 4 cars whilst the production line is still set up, you know like London Overground did.
Its obvious the three cars won’t be enough, there is loads of suppressed demand in the North.
Iron board type seats makes no sense. They are inferior for sure, maybe to the current railway scene for the UK it is acceptable e.g. the same one that thinks the Class 700 units are 'modern' go and travel to other countries! It is really sad how far the railway's have fallen all whilst many think we have never had it so good.
How on earth can you say you're not happy with the 195s and 331s when you haven't even been on one yet?
coppercapped
Established Member
Have you ever tried the seats in, for example, the Munich S-Bahn?
Do so. Then reconsider your statement.
Has anyone got an identikit parade of seat types? When you don't know your ironing board from your grammar, what can you turn to?
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
You are aware that the Minister had to overrule his DfT officials to allow new trains to be bought for Northern (and the Pacers scrapped)?
Northern ordered as many new vehicles as it could afford.
I'd be surprised if the franchise finances are healthier than they forecast in their bid, with all the recent disruption.
The CAF production line extends to more recent Civity orders for WMT and Wales & Borders, so there's some possibility of orders after the Northern trains are delivered.
It's also very likely that options are available from CAF, with a production line in Newport to keep busy.
There are options available to Northern, one I know of is to extend the 331/1s to five carriages.
Randomer
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Have a look at this very useful thread (from the second post onwards):
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/train-seat-guide.162677/#post-3401740
LOL The Irony
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Initial impressions.
samuelmorris
Established Member
So, what they look like and what they sound like. As far as I know your complaints are based on ironing board seats (If they do have those, it's disappointing but they're not the worst) and mechanical transmission which has been demonstrated to be far more efficient than hydraulic transmissions of old. With a properly manufactured interior (i.e. not that used on a Turbostar) I don't see what the issue will be. It's not that they aren't smooth or are any noisier than the alternatives.
It's not compulsory to have an opinion just yet, you know.
LOL The Irony
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I know. I'm just putting my current opinion out there.
Have been to over 20 countries in the last four years alone and the UK rail network is poor, my statement stands some of the recent trains are awful and clearly behind much of the world in regards to travel comfort. I actuallty enjoyed the seats on some of the Indian trains last year and for sure better than that of the Class 700 etc.
I wouldn't rule that out as the greatest obstacle to encouraging people to move from the car to the train in the North is the grotty, dated state of most of Northern's rolling stock. If patronage picks up sharply upon the introduction of new rolling stock - which I fully expect - then Arriva may well place an additional order, maybe another 10-15 units to the 55 DMUs ordered?
However I would temper that optimism with the belief there will be a decent supply of freed modern diesel stock come 2023 that may be increased by new franchise DMU orders. 22 of TPE's 185s and 23 of WMT Turbostars will be free by 2020. The 27 Coradias KeolisAmey Wales will be free by 2023 etc.
tbtc
Veteran Member
This is a forum where people end up having heated arguments about the seats on trains that aren't yet in service because their Spider-senses can apparently tell what's going to be comfortable from viewing an Artists Impression!
Based on my first impressions of seeing the 195s they look... okay... nothing exciting but then nothing that will age that badly - the fairly angular design could have been for a Network South East prototype thirty years ago - it's quite a functional look.
I previously thought that the short nature of them (and lack of corridor connections) would be a problem on routes like Sheffield - Wakefield Westgate - Leeds, but the industrial disruption on Northern seems to be choking off discretionary passengers so a two/three coach DMU may end up being sufficient in the short/medium term. The WMT franchise has given Arriva a bit of breathing space in that the 195 production line is potentially being kept open a good bit longer than initially expected, so if best comes to best then there are at least options for more stock.
But what Northern needs is more basic 75mph DMUs (which may mean hoovering up any and all 150s/156s from elsewhere) - the second hand market will have a number of 158/170/175/185s on it over the next couple of years, but most unelectrified Northern routes are basic ones where the DMU rarely gets above 50mph, yet alone the 75mph maximum speed of a 150/156. The economics of the franchise mean that we are doing well to get any brand new stock, so I'm not expecting additional 195s any time soon.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They are regional expresses, and the units are totally suitable for most of them (barring that I’d have gone bi mode for Barrow/Windermere specifically).
I fail to see what the gearbox has to do with it. Ever been on a 172?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They in no way whatsoever resemble a Pacer beyond being a DMU. Don’t be silly.
Initial impressions of what? How can you form an opinion of a train type which hasn't even entered service just by looking at photos of the interior?
I fully expect they won’t, and it’ll be like First Transpennine Express all over again.
Although the 158s weren’t exactly grotty, the 185s created a modern image that generated more traffic, and then filled up to bursting point, a situation that is only going to be resolved a few years into the next franchise.
I expect the same will happen to the 195s and demand will be suppressed again.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If they order more units (rather than extending existing ones) bi mode are needed.
LOL The Irony
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It's fine when it's on an inter urban service but not a 100mph run up the WCML.
Ever tried online shopping? And my opinion on them can & may change. I might get on them & think they're the best thing since sliced bread or I might take an even dimmer view on them. Right now I think they could have made better decisions interior wise
LOL The Irony
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I don't expect, I'm 99.99 recurring% sure it'll be repeated. I've wondered from day 1 the frankly stupid decision to only be 2&3 carriages (unless my strike through prediction is true).
I’d forgotten half were going to be just 2 cars. That’s even worse.
On what route at what time of day is a 2 car train 195 going to be sufficient and not look like yet another tiny Northern train trundling in already almost full before you even get on.
And if they will run doubled up, why not just build half as many 4 cars instead?
On what route at what time of day is a 2 car train 195 going to be sufficient and not look like yet another tiny Northern train trundling in already almost full before you even get on.
And if they will run doubled up, why not just build half as many 4 cars instead?
Totally agreed. Whilst there are are another eighteen two-car DMUs expected by 2022, these are going to be Turbostar equivalents rather than 150s/156s/158s.
Hopefully the next franchise orders some "commuter" DMUs, I think something like the four-car 196 would be ideal.
LOL The Irony
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I think it's so they can run 5 car formations during peak instead of 4 (God forbid if the 3 car unit fails). Should have ordered them as 2, 3 & 4 car sets.
Yes I have, but I fail to see what it has to do with this discussion.
LOL The Irony
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It answers how I can get impressions from pictures.
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