Northern Class 195: Initial Diagrams

[Bletchleyite]

Someone I know caught the 14:50 Airport to Liverpool today at Piccadilly (15:09) and has reported 2x150 on this service.

With today's heat I think people would foresake the ability to see out of the window or any noise issues just for working aircon!

 

[Bovverboy]

I think at the diagram shown post 201 will be a 195 if one is available. It is normally 2 x 150 and one of these in recent times has been green 150105.

If you scrutinize post #201 carefully you will see that everything except a bit of the very first paragraph relates to Saturday duties.
I don't think the diagram containing the 1450 ex-Airport has ever been operated by a 195, midweek. One is standard fare on a Saturday, though.
Only eight 195s are known to have been in service up to now (195102/14/6-21) and Mondays to Saturdays they're all spoken for. If all eight are available the routine on Mondays to Fridays is four on Barrow/Windermere, two on all-day Liverpool, one for doubling up one of the Liverpools at peak, and one maintenance spare. Saturdays, because there's no doubling up, the unit made surplus covers the third all-day duty on Liverpools. Sundays it's four on Barrow/Windermere, but none on Liverpools, for whatever reason.
In respect of non-195 workings on Liverpool semi-fasts I would have said the standard formation is 2x156, but I appreciate that 150s are also used.

 

[Bovverboy]

'Journey Check' for yesterday was showing one of the booked 195 duties (the one booked for a single unit all day) on Airport - Liverpools as formed of two carriages, so it came as a surprise when 156469+156461 turned up on the 1550 ex-Airport. The non-195 duty was also formed of a double 156, 156455+156425. The third diagram was formed of 195117 when I saw it, which was when it was doing the 1816 from Lime Street. I'm afraid I didn't see it the previous trip (when it should have been doubled), so I can't say for sure whether it was doubled or not. The evidence says not.
The 1729 journey Airport to Windermere was operated by 195115, this is a unit I think has not been previously reported as having been seen in service.

 

[Bovverboy]

The 1729 journey Airport to Windermere was operated by 195115, this is a unit I think has not been previously reported as having been seen in service.

Talking of 195115 I actually travelled on it myself today, from Piccadilly to Wigan North Western, on the 1629 ex-Airport. Apart from being my first experience of 195115 it was also my first of the phantom doors - no, I wasn't the one being crushed, but a few other passengers were. I'm amazed that this problem hasn't been sorted out - and equally amazed that the crews are continuing to work the units with the fault, since the impression given is that the crews are closing the doors deliberately.
Oh, and the toilet was out of order, so, following representations made to the conductor by passengers who needed to 'go', he announced that he would see if he could arrange a toilet stop at Wigan North Western. This resulted in counter-representations from passengers who had advance tickets for the Virgin Preston to Edinburgh train, so the decision was that he would try and arrange a toilet stop at Preston. In the event, I don't know what happened, I wasn't on the train by then.*

The loading situation was fully seated, plus standing in the vestibules to the point of discomfort, even leaving Piccadilly. I don't think there's a lot of point in buying posh-looking new trains if people can't be carried in reasonable conditions. Manchester to Barrow is hardly a local service.

* EDIT: RTT says there was a 15-minute dwell at Preston.

 

[daveo]

…..following representations made to the conductor by passengers who needed to 'go', he announced that he would see if he could arrange a toilet stop at Wigan North Western. This resulted in counter-representations from passengers who had advance tickets for the Virgin Preston to Edinburgh train, so the decision was that he would try and arrange a toilet stop at Preston. In the event, I don't know what happened, I wasn't on the train by then.*

Preston would make more sense, where the toilets are on the platform. At Wigan they are down the steps and along the passage, near the exit

 

[Jamesrob637]

09:29 Airport to Barrow has skipped Heald Green and East Didsbury again today though whether it's a train fault or a residual of earlier delays/having to make up time, I'm not sure.

 

[Staffordian]

09:29 Airport to Barrow has skipped Heald Green and East Didsbury again today though whether it's a train fault or a residual of earlier delays/having to make up time, I'm not sure.

The incoming service from Barrow was Right Time at Eccles, 9 late leaving Piccadilly at 0910 and 15 late arriving at the Airport at 0936. It got stuck behind the TPE from Cleethorpes which left Piccadilly right time at 0907 and then itself lost 7 mins en route to Airport, arriving 0932. The 0929 to Barrow therefore left 12 late, presumably skipped Heald Green and East Didsbury to recover time and left Piccadilly 7 late. By Wigan it was 2 late, so more or less back in time.

Whatever caused all this, it wasn’t a fault on the 195 !
It’s more likely the usual problems with the Castlefield - Piccadilly - Airport corridor not being able to cope with late running trains.
In this case the 0729 Lime Street - Crewe appears to be the real culprit, having left Lime Street 29 late, left Piccadilly 32 late at 0902 and was terminated at Alderley Edge at 0946, still 27 late.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The incoming service from Barrow was Right Time at Eccles, 9 late leaving Piccadilly at 0910 and 15 late arriving at the Airport at 0936. It got stuck behind the TPE from Cleethorpes which left Piccadilly right time at 0907 and then itself lost 7 mins en route to Airport, arriving 0932. The 0929 to Barrow therefore left 12 late, presumably skipped Heald Green and East Didsbury to recover time and left Piccadilly 7 late. By Wigan it was 2 late, so more or less back in time.

Whatever caused all this, it wasn’t a fault on the 195 !
It’s more likely the usual problems with the Castlefield - Piccadilly - Airport corridor not being able to cope with late running trains.
In this case the 0729 Lime Street - Crewe appears to be the real culprit, having left Lime Street 29 late, left Piccadilly 32 late at 0902 and was terminated at Alderley Edge at 0946, still 27 late.

Thank you! I was lucky when I caught it on 08 July - all was on time and I made the Morecambe connection at Lancaster with several minutes to spare. Liverpool to Crewe isn't operated by a 195 or 331, is it? I think it goes down the Airport line whereas I usually catch stuff from Heaton Chapel on the Stockport line. I made a special trip to East Didsbury to pick up the 195 on 08 July as I wasn't sure how full it would get at Piccadilly if I connected from another train off Heaton Chapel (or whether connections would be too tight given the 09:30 validity of rovers during the week)

 

[_toommm_]

The incoming service from Barrow was Right Time at Eccles, 9 late leaving Piccadilly at 0910 and 15 late arriving at the Airport at 0936. It got stuck behind the TPE from Cleethorpes which left Piccadilly right time at 0907 and then itself lost 7 mins en route to Airport, arriving 0932. The 0929 to Barrow therefore left 12 late, presumably skipped Heald Green and East Didsbury to recover time and left Piccadilly 7 late. By Wigan it was 2 late, so more or less back in time.

Whatever caused all this, it wasn’t a fault on the 195 !
It’s more likely the usual problems with the Castlefield - Piccadilly - Airport corridor not being able to cope with late running trains.
In this case the 0729 Lime Street - Crewe appears to be the real culprit, having left Lime Street 29 late, left Piccadilly 32 late at 0902 and was terminated at Alderley Edge at 0946, still 27 late.

I was on the inbound working of the 09:29 Airport to Barrow, and we got delayed at Oxford Road waiting for the TPE. The delay then got bigger as we waited after Longsight to get onto the Airport line, with about 4 trains behind the late running Lime Street to Crewe train.

 

[Bovverboy]

In this case the 0729 Lime Street - Crewe appears to be the real culprit, having left Lime Street 29 late, left Piccadilly 32 late at 0902 and was terminated at Alderley Edge at 0946, still 27 late.

An early-running Virgin Glasgow to London train was let in front of the stopper at Parkside Junction, this resulted in an early arrival at Piccadilly and an eight-minute dwell while it waited departure time. So if you want a train to blame, how about the Virgin?

 

[Bovverboy]

I was on the inbound working of the 09:29 Airport to Barrow, and we got delayed at Oxford Road waiting for the TPE.

You got delayed at Oxford Road waiting for which TPE?

 

[_toommm_]

You got delayed at Oxford Road waiting for which TPE?

What should have been the 08:47 to the Airport, ex. Middlesbrough. That was delayed by the late running 319 so it delayed the 195 aswell.

 

[Bevan Price]

Thank you! I was lucky when I caught it on 08 July - all was on time and I made the Morecambe connection at Lancaster with several minutes to spare. Liverpool to Crewe isn't operated by a 195 or 331, is it? I think it goes down the Airport line whereas I usually catch stuff from Heaton Chapel on the Stockport line. I made a special trip to East Didsbury to pick up the 195 on 08 July as I wasn't sure how full it would get at Piccadilly if I connected from another train off Heaton Chapel (or whether connections would be too tight given the 09:30 validity of rovers during the week)

1. Most rovers & day rangers in the area (except Wayfarer) are valid from 09:00 (used to be 08:45 until the end of 2018)
2, Liverpool - Airport - Crewe are operated by a mixture of 319 & 323, and the service has become increasingly unreliable since the Liverpool - Chat Moss - Airport services were extended to Wilmslow & Crewe.
3. Sorry if I have missed this somewhere else, but I have heard tales of 195s "shedding" their winscreen wipers.

 

[Boysteve]

So I think it's fair to say that the majority of the time Circuit 7 does not happen. Even with a drop in the number of commuters during the peak summer period this is not good as the unit left to cover Circuit 6 struggles to cope!
New diagrams are supposed to be introduced from Monday 5th August, but maybe Northern should make the current ones more reliable first!

 

[superkev]

3. Sorry if I have missed this somewhere else, but I have heard tales of 195s "shedding" their winscreen wipers.

I heard 331s also regularly lose there wipers.
K

 

[a_c_skinner]

The rain in Spain falls mainly on the train...

 

[Greybeard33]

Liverpool - Airport - Crewe are operated by a mixture of 319 & 323, and the service has become increasingly unreliable since the Liverpool - Chat Moss - Airport services were extended to Wilmslow & Crewe.

Being pedantic, the Liverpool to Airport semi-fast service was diverted from the Chat Moss line to the Warrington Central line in May 2018, and is now partly operated by 195s.

At the same time the Liverpool to Manchester Victoria via Chat Moss stopper was diverted (in most though not all hours) to Piccadilly and joined to the previously separate Piccadilly to Crewe via Airport stopper. This combined Liverpool to Crewe via Airport stopper was initially extremely unreliable, but punctuality has improved somewhat since.

 

[Bovverboy]

Being pedantic, the Liverpool to Airport semi-fast service was diverted from the Chat Moss line to the Warrington Central line in May 2018, and is now partly operated by 195s.

At the same time the Liverpool to Manchester Victoria via Chat Moss stopper was diverted (in most though not all hours) to Piccadilly and joined to the previously separate Piccadilly to Crewe via Airport stopper. This combined Liverpool to Crewe via Airport stopper was initially extremely unreliable, but punctuality has improved somewhat since.

Being even more pedantic, the Chat Moss stopper did run to the Airport on Sundays, when the semi-fast did not operate. Between Lime Street and Piccadilly it called at all stations except Edge Hill, Patricroft, and Deansgate - I think it ran non-stop from Piccadilly to the Airport - and this situation prevailed for many years.

EDIT: Not long before the service was extended to Crewe, Patricroft was added as a stop on Sundays.

 

[43055]

So I think it's fair to say that the majority of the time Circuit 7 does not happen. Even with a drop in the number of commuters during the peak summer period this is not good as the unit left to cover Circuit 6 struggles to cope!
New diagrams are supposed to be introduced from Monday 5th August, but maybe Northern should make the current ones more reliable first!

Only one 195 on the Liverpool's today being the 1710 from Manchester pic. On arrival at Liverpool it went out of service due to a train fault but the flooding on the Manchester airport line was probably the issue. Though only one unit it did take everyone but it was every full.

 

[Bovverboy]

Only one 195 on the Liverpool's today being the 1710 from Manchester pic. On arrival at Liverpool it went out of service due to a train fault but the flooding on the Manchester airport line was probably the issue. Though only one unit it did take everyone but it was every full.

Your 195 managed to recover sufficiently to set off for Preston Croft Street sidings at 1914, only four minutes later than the scheduled time. The reason coming up on RTT for the non-operation of the 1816 journey is a problem at the depot, so putting two and two together would seem to indicate that there was nothing wrong with the 195, but simply no unit available to take over the diagram.

 

[HotelNovember]

That’s it - no unit available for the 18:16 as well as the flooding.

And you may question why it still went ECS to Preston, rather than be used for the 18:16 but it was the best option to cancel the 18:16 and keep the service out of the equation due to all the problems on the Airport line anyway. No point sending another train there to be delayed and add to the congestion. The usual protocol is to remove the Lime St-Airport completely during disruption as even running to Oxford Road/Picc causes congestion

 

[darloscott]

So I think it's fair to say that the majority of the time Circuit 7 does not happen. Even with a drop in the number of commuters during the peak summer period this is not good as the unit left to cover Circuit 6 struggles to cope!
New diagrams are supposed to be introduced from Monday 5th August, but maybe Northern should make the current ones more reliable first!

I guess if you're short of a unit then a diagram that only does a handful of trips as a peak strengthener is the first one to be cut rather than an all day one.

 

[matacaster]

Sets 195111 & 195105 lurking in sidings at hudds 11.48, 105 with engines running.

 

[43055]

Your 195 managed to recover sufficiently to set off for Preston Croft Street sidings at 1914, only four minutes later than the scheduled time. The reason coming up on RTT for the non-operation of the 1816 journey is a problem at the depot, so putting two and two together would seem to indicate that there was nothing wrong with the 195, but simply no unit available to take over the diagram.

Thank you for the explanation. It does seem odd that there are a number of 195's sat at edge hill and the depot near Liverpool south parkway (I'm not familiar with the area) but I presume they have only recently arrived and are not ready for service yet.

 

[Boysteve]

I guess if you're short of a unit then a diagram that only does a handful of trips as a peak strengthener is the first one to be cut rather than an all day one.

Agreed. Although many daily commuters would rather have a seat on a refurbished 4 car 156 than have to stand day in, day out on a 3 car 195 as as happened so far this week! That is until today when Circuit 6 and Circuit 7 are replaced by a single 156 unit, 2 cars instead of the scheduled 6. Northern has many more units than in did 6 months ago (170s from Scotland, 150s from both Great Western and the Midlands, plus the new trains). Surely this is more than enough to cover hourly Bridlington - Scarborough and Chester extensions from Leeds etc, yet they seem to have less units in service. I would love to know the number of units in total vs the number in service both this week, 6 months ago, and also at the very start of the franchise! Without this most of our opinions will be just that, opinions.

Update; Circuit 5 is a 2 car 156 today. This reinforces my point about unit availability in general.
Before the 195's arrived 2 x 4 car 156s would have covered circuits 5,6 & 7, so 8 coaches in total.
With the 195's as initially planned this drops to 6 coaches off-peak but strengthened to 9 coaches peak only. Today we have 4 coaches.

 

[Bovverboy]

Thank you for the explanation. It does seem odd that there are a number of 195's sat at edge hill and the depot near Liverpool south parkway (I'm not familiar with the area) but I presume they have only recently arrived and are not ready for service yet.

It's strongly rumoured that more 195s are going to enter service this weekend, so it's unlikely that those stored are in some way prohibited from being used. More likely, I'm pretty sure that TOCs are charged by the leasing companies for vehicle use (i.e. not just for having them on fleet strength), so the less vehicles are used, the greater the saving.

 

[Bovverboy]

Update; Circuit 5 is a 2 car 156 today. This reinforces my point about unit availability in general.
Before the 195's arrived 2 x 4 car 156s would have covered circuits 5,6 & 7, so 8 coaches in total.
With the 195's as initially planned this drops to 6 coaches off-peak but strengthened to 9 coaches peak only. Today we have 4 coaches.

Do you know what formation is covering the third all-day diagram on Liverpool's, i.e. the non-195 diagram?

 

[Boysteve]

It might be a 4-car 156. I say 'might' because some of the CLC services have been 20 minutes late this evening and I mistook an airport service as a stopper earlier!

 

[js1000]

It's strongly rumoured that more 195s are going to enter service this weekend, so it's unlikely that those stored are in some way prohibited from being used. More likely, I'm pretty sure that TOCs are charged by the leasing companies for vehicle use (i.e. not just for having them on fleet strength), so the less vehicles are used, the greater the saving.

Teething problems and summer holidays (the qualified pool of staff able to operate the 195s is probably small relative to other units) I think are an obstacle. Although it is somewhat concerning that Circuit 7 (i.e. as a six-coach peak-time service) hasn't existed in the last week.

 

[Wtloild]

Saw a 3-car 195 pulling out of Chorley this evening at about 17:35, northbound.
Didn't realise we'd be getting 195s on this line (expecting to be getting 331s at some point though).