Northern Class 331: Initial diagrams

[Jamesrob637]

I didn't see the 07:23 Blackpool North to Hazel Grove at around 09:00 today as it was late, however can anyone confirm whether this was a 6-car 331? It gets people into Piccadilly or the Salford area for a 9am start, or a 09:30 start if working a little further afield within the city centre or in Stockport/the Heatons/Levenshulme/Hazel Grove area, so it should be busy on all accounts.

 

[JMan]

The 06:53 Blackpool to Manchester Airport was an 8 carriage 331/1 - back 4 carriages locked out - everyone crammed into first 4 - quick way to annoy everybody on a Monday morning. Can only assume this was meant to be 2 331/0 (i.e. 6 carriages).

The 0723 to Hazel Grove was showing as 6 carriages until departure but I think it ran as 3. We shouldn’t give Northern trains they can shorten!!

 

[Fedupnorthern]

The 06:53 Blackpool to Manchester Airport was an 8 carriage 331/1 - back 4 carriages locked out - everyone crammed into first 4 - quick way to annoy everybody on a Monday morning. Can only assume this was meant to be 2 331/0 (i.e. 6 carriages).

The 0723 to Hazel Grove was showing as 6 carriages until departure but I think it ran as 3. We shouldn’t give Northern trains they can shorten!!

How is it possible for an organisation to be this inept?

 

[Llama]

The 0723 was indeed a three car set.

 

[js1000]

The 06:53 Blackpool to Manchester Airport was an 8 carriage 331/1 - back 4 carriages locked out - everyone crammed into first 4 - quick way to annoy everybody on a Monday morning. Can only assume this was meant to be 2 331/0 (i.e. 6 carriages).

The return 08:41 trip from Manchester Airport to Blackpool departed 32 minutes and numerous stops were cancelled.

The reason for this cancellation was stated as: "The train has been delayed by a fault occurring when attaching a part of a train".

I would go along with the notion it was was meant to be 6 carriages but diagramming problems overnight led to two 4-cars having to work together! What a mess.

 

[JMan]

You do have to wonder what the point in ASDO is then - technically shouldn’t be a problem running 7/8 carriages or am I missing something - suppose would be a bit of a nightmare at Oxford Road trying to communicate to people to move down the train...

 

[Fedupnorthern]

For those reading now.
https://live-departures.info/rail/dppc/Bolton/
2N60 from Hazel Grove is indicated as 6 coach.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not a 331 item, but an 8-car 319 arrived in Manchester Victoria P3 at about 1255 today, and stood there for at least 15 minutes.
I've never seen a Northern double unit 319 before.
I thought it might have been the Preston stopper, but that was cancelled on RTT.

 

[Amstel]

Caught the 10.03 from Hazel Grove to Blackpool; it was a 3 coach 331.
The crew said it was booked as a 6 car set. They confirmed that a 6 car set fits in the siding.
Only one more train from Hazel Grove to Blackpool ran until 3pm - three of the next four trains to Blackpool were cancelled.
Disgraceful, Northern.

 

[Sleeperwaking]

You do have to wonder what the point in ASDO is then - technically shouldn’t be a problem running 7/8 carriages or am I missing something - suppose would be a bit of a nightmare at Oxford Road trying to communicate to people to move down the train...

It depends very much on the route. If there are any stations where the platform is just about long enough to fit one 4-car unit (and assuming the front of the train can't go off the end of the platform), none of the doors on the 2nd 4-car will be adjacent to a platform. So in that scenario I could see why someone decided to lock the rear 4-car unit out of use. With a 2 x 3-car unit, it could be that the 1st vehicle on the 2nd 3-car is adjacent to the platform. I don't know the Hazel Grove route very well - I know there are a few platforms on the Donny-Leeds route which will only just take a 4-car.

 

[Jamesrob637]

For those reading now.
https://live-departures.info/rail/dppc/Bolton/
2N60 from Hazel Grove is indicated as 6 coach.

Possibly one for a separate thread, but that is very useful. Still a couple too many two-coach formations to be perfectly healthy, however I realise that one or two are short-forms (such as the Southport to Alderley Edge, which on this occasion was only running Wigan to Stockport!)

 

[Fedupnorthern]

Caught the 10.03 from Hazel Grove to Blackpool; it was a 3 coach 331.
The crew said it was booked as a 6 car set. They confirmed that a 6 car set fits in the siding.
Only one more train from Hazel Grove to Blackpool ran until 3pm - three of the next four trains to Blackpool were cancelled.
Disgraceful, Northern.

The 1801 Picc to Blackpool, formerly a split with Barrow or Windermere as 6 coaches is showing as 4 coaches only tonight (as usual).
This is a train that they need to lengthen, not mid mornings from Hazel Grove or Lunchtimes from Victoria.

 

[RAPC]

The 06:53 Blackpool to Manchester Airport was an 8 carriage 331/1 - back 4 carriages locked out - everyone crammed into first 4 - quick way to annoy everybody on a Monday morning. Can only assume this was meant to be 2 331/0 (i.e. 6 carriages).

Well that explains why it was so busy then when the platforms themselves looked quieter than usual.

Even for a 6 carriage service, I’m not 100% sure they can fit in fully to many of the platforms as these were previously cleaned up to maximise platform length during the Farnworth tunnel work. For example Platform 1 at Leyland can probably cope as it, but 2/3 would need to be cleaned up to maximise the length to cope.

 

[Bovverboy]

The return 08:41 trip from Manchester Airport to Blackpool departed 32 minutes and numerous stops were cancelled.

The reason for this cancellation was stated as: "The train has been delayed by a fault occurring when attaching a part of a train".

I would go along with the notion it was was meant to be 6 carriages but diagramming problems overnight led to two 4-cars having to work together! What a mess.

But what's the point of running a double 4-car set, if one unit needs to be locked out?

 

[Fedupnorthern]

But what's the point of running a double 4-car set, if one unit needs to be locked out?

Perhaps it gets two incorrect units to the correct destination so that the difficulty can be compounded onto the next leg of the diagram.

 

[Bovverboy]

Possibly one for a separate thread, but that is very useful. Still a couple too many two-coach formations to be perfectly healthy, however I realise that one or two are short-forms (such as the Southport to Alderley Edge, which on this occasion was only running Wigan to Stockport!)

I think all the Southport - Alderley Edge/Stalybridge diagrams are booked for four-car sets in the middle of the day. I know of one which knocks down to a two-car in early evening, so there may be others.
As to short forms, they're something which will always be around. Northern keeps a fleet of a particular type of unit sufficient to cover peak requirement and adds a certain percentage (usually 10-15%) to cover scheduled maintenance. Any deficiency after that is met by short-forming or cancellation. Whatever Northern may tell you (i.e. things are going to be so much better in future), I can assure you they're not. That isn't how things operate.

 

[Bovverboy]

Not a 331 item, but an 8-car 319 arrived in Manchester Victoria P3 at about 1255 today, and stood there for at least 15 minutes.
I've never seen a Northern double unit 319 before.
I thought it might have been the Preston stopper, but that was cancelled on RTT.

I don't think 319s have operated in service as 8-car sets while they've been with Northern - with Thameslink they operated as up to 12-car, and I think WMT have generally used them in multiple. That may have changed from today, of course.
Double 319s have operated with Northern previously, but only with the rear unit locked out. For a year or two there was an early morning double Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Victoria, and a return working late in the evening. The point of that was, three 319s started and finished their day at Victoria (though not necessarily the same ones) but there was only room for two to stable overnight in the reversing siding. So the third was brought from Allerton. There was a similar working between Wigan and Liverpool, but it may have been one-way only, I'm not sure now.

As to the Preston stoppers, today's 1105 ex-Victoria is recorded as having arrived in P1 at Preston at 1201, but not departed again until it left P1 at 1418 to go ECS to Victoria. Other trains used P1 in between, so the ex-Victoria clearly went somewhere. Did it go to Victoria and back ECS? It may have done. Certainly, if it didn't leave Victoria until 1310 or later, it was likely to have been late at Preston.

 

[Jamesrob637]

The 07:23 from Blackpool to Hazel Grove was 6-car today - had to grab a photo in case the moment never arises again and I believe there might have even been paying passengers in both units (as opposed to the rear unit being locked out of use)

 

[Kite159]

I don't think 319s have operated in service as 8-car sets while they've been with Northern - with Thameslink they operated as up to 12-car, and I think WMT have generally used them in multiple. That may have changed from today, of course.

8 coach max for Thameslink, it's only since May when they have been running as 12 coach sets on London Northwestern services.

 

[Bovverboy]

8 coach max for Thameslink, it's only since May when they have been running as 12 coach sets on London Northwestern services.

My mistake. I thought most things in the home counties ran as twelve-car sets!

 

[Llama]

I don't think 319s have operated in service as 8-car sets while they've been with Northern - with Thameslink they operated as up to 12-car, and I think WMT have generally used them in multiple. That may have changed from today, of course.
Double 319s have operated with Northern previously, but only with the rear unit locked out. For a year or two there was an early morning double Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Victoria, and a return working late in the evening. The point of that was, three 319s started and finished their day at Victoria (though not necessarily the same ones) but there was only room for two to stable overnight in the reversing siding. So the third was brought from Allerton. There was a similar working between Wigan and Liverpool, but it may have been one-way only, I'm not sure now.

For a short while earlier this year/late last year there was a double 319 on (IIRC) the last Lime Street - Manchester Airport via Chat Moss. The back set was locked out of use from Liverpool, and on arrival at Manchester Airport the stock formed a service from the Airport to Piccadilly, first stop Piccadilly.
Rather than unlock the front set then lock out the back set at the Airport (no point really), whenever I worked that we left all eight cars open.

 

[Bovverboy]

For a short while earlier this year/late last year there was a double 319 on (IIRC) the last Lime Street - Manchester Airport via Chat Moss. The back set was locked out of use from Liverpool, and on arrival at Manchester Airport the stock formed a service from the Airport to Piccadilly, first stop Piccadilly.

Yes, I do remember that, come to think of it.

 

[Jamesrob637]

8-car 319s is a little off-topic, however will there be any diagrammed 8-car 331 workings to get things back on topic?

 

[JMan]

8-car 319s is a little off-topic, however will there be any diagrammed 8-car 331 workings to get things back on topic?

or 7! The 0632 Blackpool to Hazel Grove was initially showing as 7 carriages before departure - ran as 4.

 

[js1000]

Whatever Northern may tell you (i.e. things are going to be so much better in future), I can assure you they're not. That isn't how things operate.

They need to get all the 195/331s in service but it's going to be another 6 months until that happens and probably another 12 before they can be deemed reliable with faults ironed out. Once they are all in service they'll be able to rationalise carriage numbers. At the moment they're all over the place with many of the new units out of service due to faults, lack of staff and staff training requirements which are resulting in short forming.

By the way, I actually think the Hazel Grove to Blackpool route is a bad match for the 331s. It's a pure commuter route that owes itself to 3+2 commuter seating. Double 323s would be better but apparently they have problems through Bolton or something which is unfortunate.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Anyone know if the morning Stoke-Blackpool service (and the reinstated 06:00 MAC-CNG-SOT which now forms it) is a 331 or still a 319 (or something else entirely)?
RTT had it timed as a DMU before the timetable change but now says 323.
Still using Platform 2 at Stoke despite a 319 (just about) fitting in P3.

 

[Jamesrob637]

They need to get all the 195/331s in service but it's going to be another 6 months until that happens and probably another 12 before they can be deemed reliable with faults ironed out. Once they are all in service they'll be able to rationalise carriage numbers. At the moment they're all over the place with many of the new units out of service due to faults, lack of staff and staff training requirements which are resulting in short forming.

By the way, I actually think the Hazel Grove to Blackpool route is a bad match for the 331s. It's a pure commuter route that owes itself to 3+2 commuter seating. Double 323s would be better but apparently they have problems through Bolton or something which is unfortunate.

If I am still living near Heaton Chapel next summer it will be heaven on hotter day trips to Blackpool - 331s are extremely quiet inside!

 

[Bovverboy]

Whatever Northern may tell you (i.e. things are going to be so much better in future), I can assure you they're not. That isn't how things operate.

They need to get all the 195/331s in service but it's going to be another 6 months until that happens and probably another 12 before they can be deemed reliable with faults ironed out. Once they are all in service they'll be able to rationalise carriage numbers. At the moment they're all over the place with many of the new units out of service due to faults, lack of staff and staff training requirements which are resulting in short forming.

Jam tomorrow.

 

[Greybeard33]

By the way, I actually think the Hazel Grove to Blackpool route is a bad match for the 331s. It's a pure commuter route that owes itself to 3+2 commuter seating. Double 323s would be better but apparently they have problems through Bolton or something which is unfortunate.

I believe there are some platforms on the Blackpool to Hazel Grove route that require a 6-car to use SDO, which the 323s do not have. Maybe these platforms could be lengthened by the time the additional 323s arrive from WMT, in order that the some 331s could be redeployed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe there are some platforms on the Blackpool to Hazel Grove route that require a 6-car to use SDO, which the 323s do not have. Maybe these platforms could be lengthened by the time the additional 323s arrive from WMT, in order that the some 331s could be redeployed?

To me it'd make sense to start a rolling programme of extending all platforms in the North to 6x24m (or maybe 8x24m for double 4-car 331s?) as a standard, except the small diesel branches which should be 3x24m (for a single 195). That would be a good future-proofing for the foreseeable.