Northern Class 331: Initial diagrams

[Greybeard33]

You do have to wonder what the point in ASDO is then - technically shouldn’t be a problem running 7/8 carriages or am I missing something - suppose would be a bit of a nightmare at Oxford Road trying to communicate to people to move down the train...

If a 7- or 8-car stopped at Salford Crescent, I believe the rear unit would foul one or the other of the Windsor Bridge junctions, causing gridlock. So 6-car is the longest that can be used on the Blackpool - Airport/Hazel Grove routes.

 

[4REP]

What are the airdale/wharfdale diagrams please?

 

[JonathanH]

A few 331 observations this morning

331105 1N51 0542 Manchester Airport to Blackpool North
331103 1Y54 0653 Blackpool North to Manchester Airport
331111 2A91 0524 Liverpool Lime Street to Crewe
331008 2N60 0606 Hazel Grove to Blackpool North
331017 2N61 0629 Stoke-on-Trent to Blackpool North
331018+331005 2H03 0723 Blackpool North to Hazel Grove

 

[Bovverboy]

I get the feeling that these double 331s are being deployed, not necessarily where they're most needed, but where there is the greatest propaganda value.
If Northern is suddenly flushed with EMUs, how come there is at least one 2-car DMU operating on Blackpool - Manchester Airport today? (And plenty of short-forms on DMU routes, of course).

 

[Jamesrob637]

I get the feeling that these double 331s are being deployed, not necessarily where they're most needed, but where there is the greatest propaganda value.
If Northern is suddenly flushed with EMUs, how come there is at least one 2-car DMU operating on Blackpool - Manchester Airport today? (And plenty of short-forms on DMU routes, of course).

Should have run Hazel Grove as a single and used the other to the Airport. A bit robbing Peter to pay Paul, as it were, but better overall.

 

[Bovverboy]

Deleted - misread Jamesrob637's post.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

By the way, I actually think the Hazel Grove to Blackpool route is a bad match for the 331s. It's a pure commuter route that owes itself to 3+2 commuter seating. Double 323s would be better but apparently they have problems through Bolton or something which is unfortunate.

Same as the Aire/Wharfe. Especially as the 2x3 car 331s aren't able to run as the platform lengthening hasn't happened (as I understand it - that was the reason Northern gave me on Twitter anyway).

Instead a 4 car 333 with 3x2 seating is being replaced with a 4 car 331 with a load of 2x2 tables. Not quite the promised (and needed!) capacity uplift...

 

[xotGD]

Same as the Aire/Wharfe. Especially as the 2x3 car 331s aren't able to run as the platform lengthening hasn't happened (as I understand it - that was the reason Northern gave me on Twitter anyway).

Instead a 4 car 333 with 3x2 seating is being replaced with a 4 car 331 with a load of 2x2 tables. Not quite the promised (and needed!) capacity uplift...

Not quite - the 321s and 322s are being replaced with 331s. The 333s are not affected (nominally at least). You can cram more on to a 331 than a 321 in the peak, and off peak they provide a much better journey experience.

 

[Geeves]

The 323 issues through Bolton are purely train crew related and should improve once Vic and Wigan start signing 323s as common traction (in the not too distant future)

 

[Greybeard33]

Double 323s would be better but apparently they have problems through Bolton or something which is unfortunate

The 323 issues through Bolton are purely train crew related and should improve once Vic and Wigan start signing 323s as common traction (in the not too distant future)

Except that some peak Blackpool - Hazel Grove/Airport services call at Blackrod and Adlington, where the platforms are too short for 142m double 323 formations (no SDO).

 

[JMan]

I get the feeling that these double 331s are being deployed, not necessarily where they're most needed, but where there is the greatest propaganda value.
If Northern is suddenly flushed with EMUs, how come there is at least one 2-car DMU operating on Blackpool - Manchester Airport today? (And plenty of short-forms on DMU routes, of course).

I agree! There was a 2 carriage 142 covering Victoria to Preston today - so much for them disappearing from major routes!

 

[Amstel]

Except that some peak Blackpool - Hazel Grove/Airport services call at Blackrod and Adlington, where the platforms are too short for 142m double 323 formations (no SDO).

Woodsmoor is also too short for double 323s and i think Davenport may be too.

 

[JMan]

Well I think it’s fair to say that it’s not been an entirely successful introduction of 331s on the Manchester - Blackpool services. Not sure if this is due to lack of staff trained to drive them, new timetable or combination of the two but the service this week has been shocking! Bring back double 156s if this is what we’ve got to put up with.

 

[Mogster]

Well I think it’s fair to say that it’s not been an entirely successful introduction of 331s on the Manchester - Blackpool services. Not sure if this is due to lack of staff trained to drive them, new timetable or combination of the two but the service this week has been shocking! Bring back double 156s if this is what we’ve got to put up with.

I don’t think it’s just the 331s. Northern’s services West from Manchester have been awful this week. Lime Street, Wigan, Blackpool, all with multiple cancellations every evening.

 

[js1000]

Well I think it’s fair to say that it’s not been an entirely successful introduction of 331s on the Manchester - Blackpool services. Not sure if this is due to lack of staff trained to drive them, new timetable or combination of the two but the service this week has been shocking! Bring back double 156s if this is what we’ve got to put up with.

The peak-time Blackpool North to Manchester Airport service is horrific and has been since the May 2018 timetable - simply unworkable timings that leads to many delay and cancellations. The Blackpool to Hazel Grove isn't as bad but the 331s have generated some reliability issues which will hopefully only be a short term issue once these are resolved.

 

[Jamesrob637]

07:23 Blackpool North to Hazel Grove was 6-car today on one of the quietest commuting days of the year. Bet it was 6 last Friday too (if anything even quieter being sandwiched between Boxing Day and the weekend)

Let's watch it be 3-car next week as everybody goes back to work

 

[NewSt]

Deleted.

 

[NewSt]

Is there a 331 on the 14:01 Manchester Piccadilly to Crewe service this afternoon?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Is it worth starting a thread about Northern services allocated for Double 331s? 07:23 Blackpool North to Hazel Grove was 3-car today and nothing on Journey Check. To be fair it doesn't really need 6 today.

 

[Purple Orange]

Does anyone know if it is intended for 6 car 331s to run between Crewe and Manc via Stockport once all new trains are in operation? 4 cars never feel enough.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Does anyone know if it is intended for 6 car 331s to run between Crewe and Manc via Stockport once all new trains are in operation? 4 cars never feel enough.

My heart nearly stopped then! TWO 6-car workings per hour from Heaton Chapel into Manchester?! And working air-con/USB/Wifi? You're lucky to get that in parts of the South East!

 

[Purple Orange]

My heart nearly stopped then! TWO 6-car workings per hour from Heaton Chapel into Manchester?! And working air-con/USB/Wifi? You're lucky to get that in parts of the South East!

Yep. Two. I'd genuinely expect more as 6 car working is not exactly setting the world alight. Certainly on the trains I tend to get in the morning, by the time it reaches Heaton Chappel, the poor folk who need to get on are lucky to find standing space and often the train leaves with people unable to board.

4-car services are simply not enough and the frequency to Cheadle Hulme and beyond is shocking.

I do wonder if the residents of Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel would be better served by an on-street tram line with one tram every 6 mins like the rest of the network. Free up express running from Stockport to Piccadilly.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yep. Two. I'd genuinely expect more as 6 car working is not exactly setting the world alight. Certainly on the trains I tend to get in the morning, by the time it reaches Heaton Chappel, the poor folk who need to get on are lucky to find standing space and often the train leaves with people unable to board.

Which is why I stopped it in December 2017 as I worked closer to home then from home respectively at least from Wilmslow you have Avanti and Wales Trains too.

 

[js1000]

Yep. Two. I'd genuinely expect more as 6 car working is not exactly setting the world alight. Certainly on the trains I tend to get in the morning, by the time it reaches Heaton Chappel, the poor folk who need to get on are lucky to find standing space and often the train leaves with people unable to board.

4-car services are simply not enough and the frequency to Cheadle Hulme and beyond is shocking.

I do wonder if the residents of Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel would be better served by an on-street tram line with one tram every 6 mins like the rest of the network. Free up express running from Stockport to Piccadilly.

The exact same argument could be made on the Styal Line between Mauldeth Road and East Didsbury. Reinstate the old tramway down the central reservation on the A34 to join up with the existing station. It would free up Slade Lane Junction and allow for more express trains to Manchester Airport. Hindsight eh...

I'm not sure 6 coaches are the way to go as Northern have not been unable to operate 6 coach operation on the Manchester to Liverpool with any great certainty since introducing the 195s in July. It's possible that you can have a 6 coach 195 on Monday, 5 coaches on Tuesday (3+2 unit), 4 coach 156 on Wednesday, 3 coach 150 on Thursday and a 2 coach Pacer on Friday.

 

[OrangeJuice]

Yep. Two. I'd genuinely expect more as 6 car working is not exactly setting the world alight. Certainly on the trains I tend to get in the morning, by the time it reaches Heaton Chappel, the poor folk who need to get on are lucky to find standing space and often the train leaves with people unable to board.

4-car services are simply not enough and the frequency to Cheadle Hulme and beyond is shocking.

I do wonder if the residents of Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel would be better served by an on-street tram line with one tram every 6 mins like the rest of the network. Free up express running from Stockport to Piccadilly.

I think 6 car trains would be very useful but having looked at platform lengths 2 or 3 styal line platforms wouldn't be long enough (unless SDO works). The other problem of SDO in the peaks would be if people couldn't pass through the train to get off from the platformed part of the train. The reason I mention this is currently all the Crewe - Piccadilly via Stockport interwork with those via Styal and Manchester Airport

 

[Purple Orange]

Surely SDO can be utilised. It is relatively old technology.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Have we any update on the 331 diagrams? I saw a few in the Leeds area over the weekend too. More specifically, are any Stoke services 331-operated? I will be on the 18:59 Stockport to Stoke and the 22:20 Stoke to Stockport this evening (10p tickets!)

 

[L+Y]

Have things now settled down sufficiently that there are any properly reliable six car workings?

 

[Llama]

Blackpool-Hazel Grove or Blackpool-Airport are the best bets for six car rafts, but they're not all booked 2*331 - some are 1*331 or 319.

The only 331 on the Stokes at the moment is the 0600 Macclesfield - Stoke (works empty stock from Stockport CS to Macclesfield) and 0629 Stoke - Blackpool North.

There's also the ECS for 331 driver practical handling which comes off Stockport CS and buzzes up & down between Macclesfield & Stoke most of the day with a trip back to Stockport for lunch and then back to bed at Stockport about 4pm.

 

[js1000]

Have things now settled down sufficiently that there are any properly reliable six car workings?

As someone served by both the Manchester Airport and Hazel Grove to Blackpool North 331s and Liverpool Lime Street 195s - in a nutshell: no. The inability to reliably provide 6-car service is it ends up creating capacity problems.

People starting noticing the new 6 coach service, then start using that service rather than an alternative service on a dilapidated Pacer or a 3+2 seating train. They try it once and it expect it to be 6 coaches everyday. You'll have a couple of days when it's 6 coaches but the next day it'll be 3 or even worse 2 in the case of the 195s.

In a sense they're a victim of their own success but the short-forming issue is Northern's problem which they need to address. My sense is there too much risk involved to reliably operate 6 car working due to continued faults, out of position units from day before and one portion being late from the depot to join the other train (that has happened a couple of times).