Northern Dec 2019 Timetable Bid

[Mathew S]

Extra Sunday services should take priority. To be fair, Northern does already have a pretty good Monday to Saturday timetable, at least in my neck of the woods.

No point timetabling extra Sunday services. There are no staff to operate them.

 

[js1000]

You're right, but the early anticipation isn't really showing up. New trains, staffed Northern Connect stations, faster services should all be being showcased now....it's gone so quiet on Northern Connect I have my doubts it will come to fruition in December.

Northern Connect is just a branding exercise. We already have 6 of the 11 designated Northern Connect routes operating (although I doubt the Bradford to Manchester Airport can go ahead given this service was dependent on upgrades through Manchester.)

Northern are compelled under the Franchise Agreement to spend X amount on marketing linked to Northern Connect routes in the 4th, 5th and 6th year of the franchise so they are under no obligation to do anything until April next year.

I suspect one the reasons they have refrained from doing anything is the Pacers are still in service and the long-term future and viability of the franchise which still remains up in the air. Nothing annoys passengers than "We are upgrading" while the old trains they hate still remain.

 

[Glenn1969]

It was also about a significant upgrade to stations that would have meant Halifax and Hebden Bridge staying open longer and Sowerby Bridge being staffed for the first time in ages

The Newcastle- Middlesbrough, Bradford- Airport, Calder Valley- Liverpool and Bradford- Nottingham are what is missing. That is a fair chunk of what we were promised. Is there any chance of it happening in 2020 or will it have to wait until 2024 after the Transpennine Route upgrade has finished?

 

[Mathew S]

It was also about a significant upgrade to stations that would have meant Halifax and Hebden Bridge staying open longer and Sowerby Bridge being staffed for the first time in ages

The Newcastle- Middlesbrough, Bradford- Airport, Calder Valley- Liverpool and Bradford- Nottingham are what is missing. That is a fair chunk of what we were promised. Is there any chance of it happening in 2020 or will it have to wait until 2024 after the Transpennine Route upgrade has finished?

For Bradford - Man Airport I'd suggest you'll be waiting until the Castlefield Corridor remodelling is complete, and platforms 15+16 at Picc are built. The planning assumption for Northern Connect (and in fact the rest of the Northern and TPE) having been this would be well underway already.
The others, I can't see any more major enhancements like this happening until the majority of the new trains are in service, with crews all trained, and the majority of other trains have been refurbished. Until then, there are neither staff nor trains for much more to be added.

 

[superkev]

Apologies if this has been covered before but RTT now shows times for the 2020 Calder Valley services.
Points I noticed are.
*Bradford Man Vic is 4 min faster at 57min.
*Low Moor (cost £16M) at last gains a Man Vic service with the hourly Chester service.
*Sowerby Bridge (wasnt it to be a Connect station) is reduced to just the twice hourly Chester/ Wigan services.
Not sure if RTT shows the final version.
K

 

[BenBru]

Yes was Northern Connect. My look at the numbers shows Sowerby Bridge currently is planned to lose 34% of weekday services and 50% of Sunday services.

 

[Glenn1969]

RTT shows the December timetable. Unfortunately I think the Airport service which now may never happen could have been planned to stop at Sowerby Bridge

 

[northernchris]

It seems like the Blackpool - York is going to be self contained which means they need to speed up the journey times so Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge lose their calls in addition to some slight timing improvements. It's a massive drop for Sowerby Bridge, however does Mytholmroyd require 3 trains an hour?

 

[superkev]

Yes was Northern Connect. My look at the numbers shows Sowerby Bridge currently is planned to lose 34% of weekday services and 50% of Sunday services.

I'm of the opinion that Sowerby bridge as the rail head for the Ryeburn valley, Sowerby and surrounding villages has far more potential than either Hebden Bridge or particularly Mythomroyd. Rather a strange cut if true.
K

 

[Deerfold]

I'm of the opinion that Sowerby bridge as the rail head for the Ryeburn valley, Sowerby and surrounding villages has far more potential than either Hebden Bridge or particularly Mythomroyd. Rather a strange cut if true.
K

I did point out this out some time ago.

I believe Sowerby Bridge has a link to Manchester since the line was first completed, so an odd choice to lose (especially as the Blackpool service that's left on a Sunday is now *only* available on a Sunday, having been added in parts).

Mytholmroyd seems to be increasingly being used by people who cannot park anywhere near Hebden Bridge station.

It's a shame Sowerby Bridge has had such swingeing cuts on the local bus services through Ripponden (in the 90s there was a well spaced 3-4 buses an hour, with an poorly publicised attempt in the early 2000s to run services directly to the station).

Sowerby has dropped from having 12 buses an hour into Sowerby Bridge to just 5 (1 evenings).

 

[Glenn1969]

The Sunday Man Vic - Leeds service is a stopper Rochdale- Hebden Bridge but then runs fast to Halifax for some reason. I wonder whether there may be planned TPE diversion paths later in the timetable?

I also note that the Todmorden Curve service still runs to Southport on Sundays

 

[tarq]

Apologies if this has been covered before but RTT now shows times for the 2020 Calder Valley services.

Not sure if RTT shows the final version.
K

What are the service changes for Brighouse?

 

[Glenn1969]

Brighouse has lost its through service to New Pudsey and Bramley Mon to Sat because that train will terminate at Bradford in the new timetable

 

[northernchris]

Brighouse has lost its through service to New Pudsey and Bramley Mon to Sat because that train will terminate at Bradford in the new timetable

I can't see that going down too well as it reduces the service to Leeds to hourly

 

[BenBru]

In the same backet of awesomeness as Real Time Trains, is this site:
https://live-departures.info/rail/timetable-comparison/?q=BGH+&s=mf&v=d

This will compare, for example, Brighouse's services today and in December.

I know the intent is good but fundamentally feels like a series of rertrograde steps for the Calder Valley despite recent infrastructure improvements and the promise of new stock.

 

[Deerfold]

In the same backet of awesomeness as Real Time Trains, is this site:
https://live-departures.info/rail/timetable-comparison/?q=BGH+&s=mf&v=d

This will compare, for example, Brighouse's services today and in December.

I know the intent is good but fundamentally feels like a series of retrograde steps for the Calder Valley despite recent infrastructure improvements and the promise of new stock.

Well, the last timetable change introduced much more irregular services for much of the day, balanced by just a handful of extra late services.

 

[Deerfold]

I can't see that going down too well as it reduces the service to Leeds to hourly

Though, at the moment the two services from Leeds usually arrive one to three minutes apart, making the service via Bradford useless for most.

 

[northernchris]

Though, at the moment the two services from Leeds usually arrive one to three minutes apart, making the service via Bradford useless for most.

True, I'd forgotten about that. It doesn't seem to match up with Northern's commitment to increase capacity though

 

[Mathew S]

True, I'd forgotten about that. It doesn't seem to match up with Northern's commitment to increase capacity though

Capacity and frequency aren't the same though are they. Swap two services operated by Pacers with 1 service operated by 2 x 3 car 331s (just a random example) and that's a capacity increase, even though it's fewer trains.

 

[northernchris]

Capacity and frequency aren't the same though are they. Swap two services operated by Pacers with 1 service operated by 2 x 3 car 331s (just a random example) and that's a capacity increase, even though it's fewer trains.

That's true, but currently Brighouse gets either a 2 or 3 car pacer on the service via Bradford, and mostly 4 car sprinters on the Southport so I do think it is one station that overall will be worse off.

It's going to be interesting to see what Northern do with services which currently see either 3 car 144s or those which use 153s as extra capacity. A 2 car 155/156/158 might be similar in capacity to a 144/3 however I still doubt there will be the promised 37% capacity increase

 

[tarq]

Brighouse saw significant growth when the Leeds via Dewsbury service launched. Even though the Leeds via Bradford wasn’t very useful, this is still a retrograde step. Brighouse would really benefit from a second Leeds via Dewsbury.

 

[Glenn1969]

The frequency is maintained Leeds- Halifax (and increased Bradford- Halifax) by the new Hull train. Northern clearly did not think Leeds-Brighouse justified 2 trains an hour. Which may have been a mistake?

 

[tarq]

Local passenger groups have been lobbying for improved frequency for the best part of a decade.

 

[Glenn1969]

I know they have. I am a HADRAG follower and used to be a committee member before my mobility deteriorated

 

[Bovverboy]

Changing at Salford Crescent tends to involve a 20 to 30 minute wait for a connecting service.

For most of the day there are three tph from Salford Crescent to Piccadilly at intervals of 14, 16, and 30 minutes. I have calculated that, even with a random arrival, the average wait should be about twelve minutes. If you use a service which provides a reasonable connection, the average wait should be significantly less.

 

[Mathew S]

For most of the day there are three tph from Salford Crescent to Piccadilly at intervals of 14, 16, and 30 minutes. I have calculated that, even with a random arrival, the average wait should be about twelve minutes. If you use a service which provides a reasonable connection, the average wait should be significantly less.

It's a 9 minute change from the Southport - Blackburn (xx57) onto the Blackpool North - Manchester Airport (xx06) at Salford Crescent.

It's an 8 minute change from the Southport - Leeds (xx28) onto the Blackpool - Hazel Grove (xx36) at Salford Crescent.

I understand that some passengers dislike having to change trains but really, let's be honest, these couldn't possibly be much easier.

 

[xtradj]

Is LimeSt to Leeds via Bradford starting in dec 19?

 

[Glenn1969]

No. Not sure it ever will

 

[Andyh82]

The frequency is maintained Leeds- Halifax (and increased Bradford- Halifax) by the new Hull train. Northern clearly did not think Leeds-Brighouse justified 2 trains an hour. Which may have been a mistake?

The only time anyone uses the via Bradford service now to/from Leeds, is at times when the via Dewsbury doesn’t run, such as late evening, so I won’t miss it. It basically still exists except for the section that nobody uses anyway.

What is going to be missed, is those late evening departures, as I think it means Brighouse’s last train from Leeds is now much earlier.

At least the via Dewsbury is now mostly 4 cars, I just hope at some stage it becomes 4 cars of something better than 150s.

 

[Glenn1969]

The last train is 2221. The last connection is off the 2257 Blackburn train with a 25 min wait at Bradford or Halifax.