northernchris
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They are supposedly going to 158s
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Northern Dec 2019 Timetable Bid
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They are supposedly going to 158s
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Whereas it’s been 2308 for years. They really need to introduce a 2321
Glenn1969
Established Member
They have retimed the 2338 (which has only just been introduced) to 2327 as part of the ex Hull service pattern. Should they extend that to Brighouse and restore the late train that way?
It’s actually a mile from Piccadilly to Victoria. It’s not an insignificant distance.
The vast majority of people aren't going to be walking from one station to the other though. Most of central Manchester is effectively between Picc & Vic, so only a minority of people are actually going to have to walk that far.
Even so, a fifteen minute walk isn't unreasonable to expect of (most) passengers, in my opinion.
You would be surprised how many people do make this journey, particularly in the Vic to Picc direction, along with their prams, buggies and luggage!
Jamesrob637
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The Vic end is better than the Pic end - quite the opposite of a few years ago! Anyway this is about timetable changes, and I can't see the hourly Sunday trains through Altrincham yet - has this just not yet been loaded in?
On the other hand the extra walk won't be at all welcome for those working or studying south of Piccadilly or Oxford Road, e.g Victoria to the RNCM 30 minutes walk. There are other lines with fewer services than Southport, to only one Manchester station, but the travel patterns will have developed with the knowledge that you can get a direct train to Piccadilly, so it shouldn't be surprising that existing users are unhappy when that is removed. For some of them the train will have been an important factor in taking the job or buying a house.
Oh, I don't underestimate that at all. I do think that, for the majority of those people, there is a reasonable alternative choice (e.g. changing at Salford Crescent, Wigan, or Victoria). In fact, I'm struggling to think of anywhere within commuting distance that can't get to Piccadilly / Oxford Road with no more than one change.
Human reluctance to change is a thing, of course. But that doesn't mean that making changes isn't the right thing to do.
I’m a physically fit guy who’s quite prepared to walk. Having said that Vic-Picc is not a great walk through hardly the nicest areas of central Manchester. It’s at least 20 minutes for me, for others who are less able it will be much longer.
I certainly wouldn’t want it added to my journey to S Manchester each day. The cross centre buses are infrequent and at 07:30 the trams often arrive full, once again I wouldn't want that added to my journey each morning either. Changing at Salford Crescent is an option but with it adding extra time and another point of failure to my journey I wouldn’t want to add that either.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people from Southport-Wigan to expect at least the service to Piccadilly they’ve had for many years, (or even a better one...) It’s now much worse than it has been previously. It surprises me how readily people are prepared to let NR and Northern of the hook by saying Southport-Wigan-S Manchester commuters should just suck it up and accept a poorer service. The recent changes (post Ordsall Chord and last May’s timetable changes) and ongoing disruption are just tipping the balance further in favour of driving for many I suspect, which is a big fail for Northern and NR.
I certainly wouldn’t want it added to my journey to S Manchester each day. The cross centre buses are infrequent and at 07:30 the trams often arrive full, once again I wouldn't want that added to my journey each morning either. Changing at Salford Crescent is an option but with it adding extra time and another point of failure to my journey I wouldn’t want to add that either.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people from Southport-Wigan to expect at least the service to Piccadilly they’ve had for many years, (or even a better one...) It’s now much worse than it has been previously. It surprises me how readily people are prepared to let NR and Northern of the hook by saying Southport-Wigan-S Manchester commuters should just suck it up and accept a poorer service. The recent changes (post Ordsall Chord and last May’s timetable changes) and ongoing disruption are just tipping the balance further in favour of driving for many I suspect, which is a big fail for Northern and NR.
Glenn1969
Established Member
This is presumably just about Southport passengers. Wigan passengers still have Piccadilly and Airport services with TPE Barrow/Windermere trains hourly most of the day
It’s not quite hourly, some of the Barrow/Windermere services use the Preston - Bolton route.
Okay, I hate to attempt to bring facts into a perfectly irrational forum debate, but let's look at this properly. I happen to have data from the Winter 2016 - 2017 timetable, so this is a comparison between that, the current timetable, and the new timetable from December.
MORNING PEAK (pre 9am departures)
Winter 16/17
0624 Southport - 0735 Man Picc direct (1h15)
0652 Southport - 0823 Man Picc changing at Salford Crescent (1h31)
0719 Southport - 0836 Man Picc direct (1h17)
0757 Southport - 0918 Man Picc changing at Salford Crescent (1h21)
0823 Southport - 0936 Man Picc direct (1h13)
May 2019
0617 Southport - 0736 Man Picc direct (1h19)
0634 Southport - 0756 Man Picc changing at Bolton (1h22)
0648 Southport - 0816 Man Picc changing at Salford Crescent (1h28)
0717 Southport - 0833 Man Picc direct (1h16)
0747 Southport - 0915 Man Picc changing at Salford Crescent (1h28)
0817 Southport - 0936 Man Picc direct (1h19)
0852 Southport - 1015 Man Picc changing at Salford Crescent (1h23)
December 2019 (as at 19/08/19)
0617 Southport - 0736 Man Picc direct (1h19)
0634 Southport - 0756 Man Picc changing at Bolton (1h22)
0648 Southport - 0816 Man Picc changing at Salford Crescent (1h28)
0717 Southport - 0833 Man Picc direct (1h16)
0730 Southport - 0915 Man Picc changing at Salford Crescent (1h45)
0817 Southport - 0936 Man Picc direct (1h19)
0836 Southport - 1015 Man Picc changing at Salford Crescent (1h39)
So, as we can see, there has been an increase of maximum 4 minutes in direct journey times, with the number of peak direct journeys remaining constant. It seems like there are also more journeys possible with one change, though my data for 16/17 may be incomplete.
EVENING PEAK (4pm - 6.30pm departures)
Winter 16/17
1622 Man Picc - 1737 Southport direct (1h15)
1703 Man Picc - 1815 Southport changing at Salford Crescent (1h12) NB: Not a valid connection at Salford, but usually possible.
1723 Man Picc - 1836 Southport direct (1h13)
1727 Man Picc - 1859 Southport changing at Salford Crescent (1h32)
1822 Man Picc - 1937 Southport direct (1h15)
May 2019
1618 Man Picc - 1740 Southport direct (1h22)
1635 Man Picc - 1803 Southport changing at Man Vic (1h28)
1638 Man Picc - 1825 Southport changing at Liverpool South Parkway (1h47) - can't quite believe this one comes up in journey planners, but it does!
1719 Man Picc - 1839 Southport direct (1h20)
1747 Man Picc - 1907 Southport changing at Wigan (1h17)
1735 Man Picc - 1904 Southport changing at Man Vic (1h29)
1818 Man Picc - 1932 Southport direct (1h14)
December 2019 (as at 19/08/19)
1618 Man Picc - 1730 Southport direct (1h12)
1630 Man Picc - 1815 Southport changing at Salford Crescent (1h45)
1719 Man Picc - 1828 Southport direct (1h09)
1731 Man Picc - 1857 Southport changing at Salford Crescent (1h26) NB: Not a valid connection at Salford, only 4 mins.
1731 Man Picc - 1910 Southport changing at Salford Crescent (1h39)
1818 Man Picc - 1934 Southport direct (1h16)
So, again, here there is no increase really in journey times (especially come December 19 when the direct journeys are actually a minute or two shorter). Also, once again we see that there are more possible journeys now then there were pre-May 2018, assuming that the data I'm working from is accurate.
Off-peak, the service pattern is different, but it is worth saying that even now, with all off-peak journey requiring a change at Salford Crescent off-peak journey times have increased by no more than 15 minutes. And that is comparing the fastest possible service pre-May 2018, with the slowest possible service now. Comparing fast with fast, the difference is 7 minutes each way.
My personal conclusion from this is that the people of Southport have been making an awful lot of fuss about, frankly, very little.
agbrs_Jack
Member
It's very annoying seeing people so frustrated about what you have now clarified is a 7-15m longer journey time.
I would be happy having 2 tph to Manchester in the first place and a Sunday service with no 4 hour gaps...
It’s still worse. The initial plan was no direct services to Castlefield iirc. God forbid they should expect an improved service...
Possible journeys that involve trying to board peak overcrowded services at Salford Crescent especially. As I said earlier, from painful personal experience I can understand why having to add additional points of failure to your commute is undesirable.
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So, there are the same number of direct services as before (peak, and from this December off peak as well) taking as near as makes no difference the same amount of time. There are more opportunities for journeys with one change, whether you choose to use them or not.
How, objectively, is that worse?
Forgive me, but you're beginning to sound like you're arguing against change purely for the sake of it.
Bantamzen
Established Member
You know you've more or less described my daily walk across Leeds from the one and only railway station, which from platform to desk takes around 15-20 minutes. This route too has infrequent cross-city bus services early on, and indeed even when the service is full swing you can still be stood around for 10-15 minutes sometimes thanks to the crippling congestion on the routes the buses come into Leeds on. And all this without a free bus service, and certainly without extensive & frequent tram services. Plus many commuters travel beyond where my offices are, which can add another 10-15 minutes walking.
I sometimes wonder if all the investment Manchester has seen is going to waste, its one of the best connected cities in the North of England, yet commuters can't live without their direct services to everywhere. If I am going to be honest, given the ever changing shape of rail travel around the North, commuter trains would be best running into their nearest main station (i.e. North West & North East via/to Victoria, the rest via/to Piccadilly). At the same time allow use onto Metrolink within the city centre for all 'To Manchester' stations tickets as both main stations are very well served by it, and Metrolink is very well positioned to serve a large portion of the final leg & cross city journeys (although these would still be possible with longer distance services running through Victoria & Piccadilly). It might even strengthen the case for further expansion of the network, freeing up more capacity on the heavy rail network. Basically a win-win scenario as I see it. Of course this would require some more heavy rail investment such as wires to Stalybridge & Rochdale to allow electrics / bi-modes to run through Victoria, but the basic premise is not too difficult to achieve.
Southport has lost its direct link to the airport. It was due to lose its direct services to Castlefield. The campaign saved the direct services to Castlefield it seems.
I just feel the Southport customer group was right to campaign for the retention of these services, why not? Other places do. Members of Bolton Council seem to constantly campaign successfully on rail issues. Why should Southport stand by stoically while it’s services are eroded for some greater good?
I just don’t understand your beef with this particular campaign. The problem is the Ordsall Chord and the lack of Castlefield capacity.
There is money being spent in Leeds, the stations being re-built over the next few years iirc.
Your experiences in Leeds are very similar to mine in central Manchester. I think the utility of the “free bus” has been overstated
As I see it the purpose of public transport is to provide a service that’ll convince people to use it instead of their car. Indirect services and 20 minute walks are hardly going to convince anyone to abandon their car. At work I’m already viewed as a public transport crusader for using the train to get to work even though door to door it’s actually faster than using my car and cheaper...
I think there are many on here who try to deflect criticism of the railway. For most the decision wether to use the service comes down to simply is it cheaper and faster than my car. There’s the convenience aspect that’s difficult to combat also.
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There is money being spent in Leeds, the stations being re-built over the next few years iirc.
Your experiences in Leeds are very similar to mine in central Manchester. I think the utility of the “free bus” has been overstated
As I see it the purpose of public transport is to provide a service that’ll convince people to use it instead of their car. Indirect services and 20 minute walks are hardly going to convince anyone to abandon their car. At work I’m already viewed as a public transport crusader for using the train to get to work even though door to door it’s actually faster than using my car and cheaper...
I think there are many on here who try to deflect criticism of the railway. For most the decision wether to use the service comes down to simply is it cheaper and faster than my car. There’s the convenience aspect that’s difficult to combat also.
The buses in Leeds are generally awkward to use though, in my experience.
A lot of them terminate at the bus station, which, needless to say, is fifteen minutes walk away from the train station.
Also, a lot of the buses travelling through the city on different routes, so if you want to get from A to B, you might find that there is a bus in five minutes from C, which is ten minutes walk away from A, but the next bus ten minutes later is from D, ten minutes walk from A in the opposite direction. Do you rush for the first bus from C or stroll to D.
NoMorePacers
Established Member
It also doesn't help that swapping the terminating stations for Leeds-Southport and Alderley Edge-Wigan scuppers the plan for electrifying Lostock-Wigan, since electric trains wouldn't be able to use it even if it was electrified from December.
Avoid London Road and Piccadilly Gardens like the plague. Either out front entrance across footbridge onto Aytoun Street. Or side entrance next to Platform 1 then down Dale Street. Both are much serene walks. Sorry for off-topic.
The Piccadilly / Oxford Road / Deansgate / Victoria doesn't bother me. I'll just walk or get the tram to the other station I need to get to. Maybe being born and bred in Manchester or something.
Having said someone at work previously got the TPE from Liverpool to Piccadilly which was 35 minutes. Doesn't exist anymore (goes to Victoria) and he drives now as it would be a 20 minute walk from Victoria vs a 5 minute walk from Piccadily previously.
The Southport train to Piccadilly issue does irritate me slightly if I'm honest. By having one it means it has to run from Alderley Edge under wires on diesel for the majority it's journey. This doesn't seem environmentally responsible in any way.
Staffordian
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I’m surprised that the old TPE Liverpool - Piccadilly - Scarborough trains took 35 mins to Piccadilly, as the EMT Norwich service with (as I thought) the same calling pattern takes 50mins today. Did the old TPE service in fact have fewer stops?
If you can't be bothered walking round Manchester central and between the stations, a Zone 1 Metrolink all day ticket seems a decent option for £1.80 (£2.60 pre 9:30am)
I am very happy there is now a 23:16 Leeds to Knottingley service so I don't have to rush to the bus station for the similarly timed 189 bus these days!
I am very happy there is now a 23:16 Leeds to Knottingley service so I don't have to rush to the bus station for the similarly timed 189 bus these days!
I don't have a "beef" with this campaign in particular, I have a serious problem with anyone who campaigns for anything purely on the basis of either self-interest or personal opinion. It's selfish, and miopic, and I think it's a huge part of what's wrong with this country at the moment (the dreaded Br*xit included). I have an even bigger problem with organisations, like Northern in this instance, who appease such narcissistic trouble makers when there is no evidence-based reason to do so. I also think it's about holding Northern (and the DfT and others) to account for the commitments that were made when the franchise was awarded, and these constant half-baked attempts to pacify a vocal minority impair everyone's ability to achieve that.
There is no place for sentimentality, selfishness, or personal opinion in practical decision making. Change happens, better for some, worse for some, and if you choose to commute by public transport, you have to accept that timetables can be changed. It's not like it doesn't happen twice a year, every year, already.
As for what's the right way to run the Southport to Manchester trains. I don't think it matters. A single change at Salford is no hardship, and I simply disagree with anyone who says otherwise. The one case where I can see specific passengers as being worse off is travelling from Southport to the airport. But, frankly, tough. That's a tiny percentage of journeys overall, so it's not important. And the changes in May '18 mean more people now have easier access to Manchester Airport by train, so overall it's a positive change.
You've got to remember that, by now, the Alderley Edge services were supposed to be 769s, so running on electric all the way from Bolton to Alderley and back.
Bevan Price
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And compare those times with 1959, when you could go from Southport to Manchester Victoria in about 55 minutes, with three intermediate stops (or just over an hour for trains routed via Bolton.) (And that was with steam power.....)
Bradford's rail service upgrade is delayed
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-49552623
Shortage of stock and Drivers mean that the improvements promised in the December timetable will not happen.
At least 23 Pacers to be kept until next Summer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-49552623
Shortage of stock and Drivers mean that the improvements promised in the December timetable will not happen.
At least 23 Pacers to be kept until next Summer
Glenn1969
Established Member
Think this was known already, and there was never a firm plan for these to be introduced in December unless I am mistaken
I had it from the mouth of someone very high up that the current pacer life is only until the end of March.
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