Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

[Starmill]

The part I omitted is that they also need PRM works; so, given they would need to be withdrawn by 31/12/19 for said works, it would make more sense to retain what's currently working the route, do the work, then put it into service. The other units don't need quite as much work from that respect.

Northern are still running a very large number of totally non-compliant 150s. As many as 50 units according to one poster.

 

[Eccles1983]

How bad was the damage? Its odd that they don't want to strip 1 out of the 79 (?) 142s for parts with a year to go.

Destroyed all the driving controls, brake unit Sanders etc.

Remarkably no obvious cosmetic damage but plenty of solebar damage..

 

[Anvil1984]

No AN 156s are 'yet to have PRM mods' because they haven't got any!
Brian

Yeah my mistake. It’s what happens when I post early morning. Shall refrain from posting bleary eyed and half asleep. Point remains though

 

[anamyd]

Like Wales?

 

[superkev]

I can't see it being long before some 144s leave on the basis of Northerns shortage of sidings particularly in Leeds for all there new and cast off stock.
K

 

[Bikeman78]

What does that have to do with anything? The same could be said of the majority of the 'home' fleet.

Quite. I don't travel on Scotrail much but any of their trains are better than most of Northern's. Even the 314s are still presentable and they are about to go off lease.

 

[northernchris]

Destroyed all the driving controls, brake unit Sanders etc.

Remarkably no obvious cosmetic damage but plenty of solebar damage..

Which unit is this please?

 

[Eccles1983]

Dunno.

Half of it is still in Newton heath.

I don't do numbers, sorry.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I can't see it being long before some 144s leave on the basis of Northerns shortage of sidings particularly in Leeds for all there new and cast off stock.
K

Hmmm... I wonder where they'll end up being stored once they've been stopped. Wrenthorpe loop near Wakefield was used to store 333s when they were new, so maybe there?

 

[anamyd]

Hmmm... I wonder where they'll end up being stored once they've been stopped. Wrenthorpe loop near Wakefield was used to store 333s when they were new, so maybe there?

They need to come to TfW Rail, not be stored!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They need to come to TfW Rail, not be stored!

Even if that happens, they'll probably be gathered up together somewhere first and sent down in twos or threes.

 

[Chester1]

The first electric train (a Pendolino) has run from Manchester to Preston via Bolton. There will probably be a couple of months of further work and testing but its looking like the diagrams that run entirely on the line and electrified lines only will be able to switch to EMUs prior to the May timetable change. I am not sure if that will be enough to free up pacers unless 769s and 195s enter service too. At worst, it will just end or reduce Northern's shortforming of DMUs.

 

[geoffk]

The first electric train (a Pendolino) has run from Manchester to Preston via Bolton. There will probably be a couple of months of further work and testing but its looking like the diagrams that run entirely on the line and electrified lines only will be able to switch to EMUs prior to the May timetable change. I am not sure if that will be enough to free up pacers unless 769s and 195s enter service too. At worst, it will just end or reduce Northern's shortforming of DMUs.

So that's Buckshaw Parkway to Victoria, Blackpool North to Piccadilly and Preston - Manchester Airport (but some of these are to/from Barrow). Can someone with a better knowledge of stock diagrams work out how many units?

 

[anamyd]

Even if that happens, they'll probably be gathered up together somewhere first and sent down in twos or threes.

Ah yeah.

 

[AMD]

Which unit is this please?

142032 - car 55623 has gone on the back of low loader for repair.

 

[northernchris]

142032 - car 55623 has gone on the back of low loader for repair.

Thank you

 

[northernchris]

So that's Buckshaw Parkway to Victoria, Blackpool North to Piccadilly and Preston - Manchester Airport (but some of these are to/from Barrow). Can someone with a better knowledge of stock diagrams work out how many units?

Buckshaw - Victoria is 2 diagrams, Blackpool - Piccadilly is 4 and Preston - Manchester Airport is 2 not including the 185 diagram. I think all diagrams are booked to be double units, so could potentially save 8 DMUs.

 

[Chester1]

Buckshaw - Victoria is 2 diagrams, Blackpool - Piccadilly is 4 and Preston - Manchester Airport is 2 not including the 185 diagram. I think all diagrams are booked to be double units, so could potentially save 8 DMUs.

Wouldn't 8 EMUs for 8 diagrams currently run by double DMUs free up 16 DMUs?

 

[northernchris]

Wouldn't 8 EMUs for 8 diagrams currently run by double DMUs free up 16 DMUs?

It would! Although I do suspect most days there aren't 16 DMUs covering the above diagrams

 

[ed1971]

...or even undeveloped countries.

It needs to be remembered that (with the exception of 141113), the Class 141s were not upgraded from Leyland TL11 engines and SCG gearboxes to the Cummins L10 and Voith powertrain, which vastly improved reliability on the later classes of Pacers. In view of the fact that original setup could not be made to work reliably in the UK, it is hardly surprising that they wouldn't work either in a hot Middle Eastern country!
A number of years ago, preserved 141113, was loaned to the Weardale railway to cover for their failed (and now scrapped) 141103. I believe that it worked for 52 consecutive days with just routine maintenance.

Other European countries had railbuses and the Germans loved their 'Uerdingen Railbus'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uerdingen_railbus .

At least the later classes of Pacers were built to the full rail width of approx 2.83 metres and have wide gangways. A lot of newer rolling stock doesn't; the 185s and 350s are a prime example and it is very difficult to get down the gangway with a large shopping bag or two. I have also noticed that these units (despite having bogies) seem almost as lively as Pacers when going over points.

Another plus point that Pacers have is that they have a smaller gap between the platform and train. It would be very difficult for a passenger to fall between the train and platform boarding one. I have seen this happen twice with 150s over the years. Although the Pacers have two steps, the first is lower down than the only step on a 150 or 156.

 

[superkev]

It needs to be remembered that (with the exception of 141113), the Class 141s were not upgraded from Leyland TL11 engines and SCG gearboxes to the Cummins L10 and Voith powertrain, which vastly improved reliability on the later classes of Pacers. In view of the fact that original setup could not be made to work reliably in the UK, it is hardly surprising that they wouldn't work either in a hot Middle Eastern country!
A number of years ago, preserved 141113, was loaned to the Weardale railway to cover for their failed (and now scrapped) 141103. I believe that it worked for 52 consecutive days

I never understood why the original pacer power train had so many problems as it was virtually an auto version of the heritage dmu arrangement.
K

 

[anamyd]

It needs to be remembered that (with the exception of 141113), the Class 141s were not upgraded from Leyland TL11 engines and SCG gearboxes to the Cummins L10 and Voith powertrain, which vastly improved reliability on the later classes of Pacers. In view of the fact that original setup could not be made to work reliably in the UK, it is hardly surprising that they wouldn't work either in a hot Middle Eastern country!
A number of years ago, preserved 141113, was loaned to the Weardale railway to cover for their failed (and now scrapped) 141103. I believe that it worked for 52 consecutive days with just routine maintenance.

Other European countries had railbuses and the Germans loved their 'Uerdingen Railbus'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uerdingen_railbus .

At least the later classes of Pacers were built to the full rail width of approx 2.83 metres and have wide gangways. A lot of newer rolling stock doesn't; the 185s and 350s are a prime example and it is very difficult to get down the gangway with a large shopping bag or two. I have also noticed that these units (despite having bogies) seem almost as lively as Pacers when going over points.

Another plus point that Pacers have is that they have a smaller gap between the platform and train. It would be very difficult for a passenger to fall between the train and platform boarding one. I have seen this happen twice with 150s over the years. Although the Pacers have two steps, the first is lower down than the only step on a 150 or 156.

I definitely need to get a ride on a Pacer before they're withdrawn to see what they're all about - I hoped I would while I was in Northern land recently but was on the wrong route for them so got a refurbed 319 and an unrefurbed 156 instead which made me feel like I was in the 90s but not in the way I had hoped. Being in Wales I should probably just head "down South" and catch some from Cardiff to the valleys and back...

 

[driver_m]

It needs to be remembered that (with the exception of 141113), the Class 141s were not upgraded from Leyland TL11 engines and SCG gearboxes to the Cummins L10 and Voith powertrain, which vastly improved reliability on the later classes of Pacers. In view of the fact that original setup could not be made to work reliably in the UK, it is hardly surprising that they wouldn't work either in a hot Middle Eastern country!
A number of years ago, preserved 141113, was loaned to the Weardale railway to cover for their failed (and now scrapped) 141103. I believe that it worked for 52 consecutive days with just routine maintenance.

Other European countries had railbuses and the Germans loved their 'Uerdingen Railbus'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uerdingen_railbus .

At least the later classes of Pacers were built to the full rail width of approx 2.83 metres and have wide gangways. A lot of newer rolling stock doesn't; the 185s and 350s are a prime example and it is very difficult to get down the gangway with a large shopping bag or two. I have also noticed that these units (despite having bogies) seem almost as lively as Pacers when going over points.

Another plus point that Pacers have is that they have a smaller gap between the platform and train. It would be very difficult for a passenger to fall between the train and platform boarding one. I have seen this happen twice with 150s over the years. Although the Pacers have two steps, the first is lower down than the only step on a 150 or 156.

Well it's about time someone defended them!!! However, I've got to argue with you on your point about ride quality over points with a 350. A 350 will not try and put your head in the ceiling when riding at speed over a set of points, it just makes a racket, whereas a 142 will try to vertically uncouple from the other coach.

 

[davart]

I quite like the Pacers, although I must admit I've mostly used them on short routes.

Think the old bus seats were the best. Very 'airy' offering a good all round view.

Remember going to uni on them in the 90s. I could be half asleep with my eyes closed in a morning and know exactly where we were due to the bumps, lurches and squeals!

Was also fun standing up on one. Good practise for riding a skateboard...

To be perfectly fair, they've served their time well. I remember thinking c.1998 that it wouldn't be long before they were scrap. Fast forward 20 years and here we are!

Wonder if it's feasible to design a modern version of them using similar constraints of the original project. Would be interesting to see the result.

 

[anamyd]

Wonder if it's feasible to design a modern version of them using similar constraints of the original project. Would be interesting to see the result.

The Alexander factory that bodied Classes 143 and 144 is currently bodying some Enviro products, if you want an idea of what the bodies could look like. And the Derby works that built the chassies for Class 142 under BREL is currently occupied by Bombardier, I'm sure they'd be happy sorting out a chassis Although they haven't made anything Diesel since the last 172s in 2011, but maybe they could couple the 172 ZF rail gearbox to something like the heaviest duty version of the Cummins ISB6.7...? Could work

 

[davart]

Yes!!!

I think they should make a prototype just to wind people up...

'We've scrapped the Pacers and replaced them with... New Pacers! But don't worry they're only a stop gap with a lifespan of 10 years...'

And forget ironing board seats. Fit actual park benches...

The Alexander factory that bodied Classes 143 and 144 is currently bodying some Enviro products, if you want an idea of what the bodies could look like. And the Derby works that built the chassies for Class 142 under BREL is currently occupied by Bombardier, I'm sure they'd be happy sorting out a chassis Although they haven't made anything diesel since the last 172s in 2011, but maybe they could couple the 172 ZF rail gearbox to something like the heaviest duty version of the Cummins ISB6.7...? Could work

 

[VioletEclipse]

Yes!!!

I think they should make a prototype just to wind people up...

'We've scrapped the Pacers and replaced them with... New Pacers! But don't worry they're only a stop gap with a lifespan of 10 years...'

And forget ironing board seats. Fit actual park benches...

well history is famous for repeating itself, something like that could easily happen one day

 

[Cardiff123]

Yes!!!

I think they should make a prototype just to wind people up...

'We've scrapped the Pacers and replaced them with... New Pacers! But don't worry they're only a stop gap with a lifespan of 10 years...'

And forget ironing board seats. Fit actual park benches...

well history is famous for repeating itself, something like that could easily happen one day

It's already happening. They're called D-Trains. Even though D-Trains won't be made out of bus parts the D-Train concept is the same as the Pacer concept. North Wales is getting some next year that are only intended as a 'stop-gap' until better, new trains cone along..................

 

[superkev]

From my first ride on one of the things where along with other passengers I had to cover my ears round St Dunstans curve I've always thought how nice a train a 2 car Class 144 with 3 bogies (6 axles instead of 4) would have been.
K

 

[Chris217]

Like them or loathe them.
Pacers deserve their place in history.
I like them a lot.
Although they were most interesting
to me when I moved up to Liverpool in 1989 as this was my first experience of travelling on them.
Many still had Leyland engines and self changing gears.
Great units for short local journeys.
The squealing round curves can be painful on the old eardrums but the click click on continuous joint track is what I liked back in the day.
Used to like seeing the GMPTE liveried ones. Reminding me of my home city and
"Pick an Orange" buses lol.
Those were the days.

Will miss them when they go though.