Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[Purple Orange]

Of my first taste of geography at primary school, England's ten largest cities are:

1) London
2) Birmingham
3) Liverpool
4) Sheffield
5) Leeds
6) Manchester
7) Bristol
8) Leicester
9) Kingston upon Hull
10) Coventry

This was based on what the population was back in 1981. Bradford is just outside at Number 11.

Perhaps Northern Powerhouse Rail should have a look at a high speed route to Kingston upon Hull as well as Bradford/Leeds/York etc?

You need to go back to school. Or at least you need to consult a map.

 

[adrock1976]

City size is completely arbitrary, do you really think Hull and Coventry are bigger than say, Newcastle?

Not today.

You need to go back to school. Or at least you need to consult a map.

Did you see the phrase "This was based on what the population was back in 1981" in my previous post?

I was surprised with 3) and 4) as in later years I believed it was Manchester and Liverpool respectively.

Has Manchester always been lumped in with its Siamese Twin neighbour and city in its own right Salford? It could be said that would be cheating to a certain extent.

 

[Glenn1969]

Current populations of city authority areas (min pop 300,000) (ONS 2019)

Birmingham 1,141,816
Leeds 793,139
Sheffield 584,853
Manchester 552,858
Bradford 539,776
Liverpool 498,042
Bristol 463,377
Coventry 371,521
Leicester 354,224
Wakefield 348,312
Nottingham: 332,900
Newcastle 302,820

This list does not include any London boroughs but I accept London as the largest City area in UK. It is just divided into 32 borough the largest of which by population are Barnet, Croydon and Newham

i hope a way can be found for HS2,HS3/NPR to benefit most of these areas

 

[edwin_m]

Current populations of city authority areas (min pop 300,000) (ONS 2019)

Birmingham 1,141,816
Leeds 793,139
Sheffield 584,853
Manchester 552,858
Bradford 539,776
Liverpool 498,042
Bristol 463,377
Coventry 371,521
Leicester 354,224
Wakefield 348,312
Nottingham: 332,900
Newcastle 302,820

This list does not include any London boroughs but I accept London as the largest City area in UK. It is just divided into 32 borough the largest of which by population are Barnet, Croydon and Newham

i hope a way can be found for HS2,HS3/NPR to benefit most of these areas

Authority areas are completely irrelevant for these purposes. For all sorts of reasons some built-up areas are split between authorities and some are covered by a single larger authority. The key factors will be the population within the catchment of a particular station, and the tendency of those people to want to travel to elsewhere on the route or people elsewhere on the route to visit that place.

 

[Purple Orange]

Not today.



Did you see the phrase "This was based on what the population was back in 1981" in my previous post?

I was surprised with 3) and 4) as in later years I believed it was Manchester and Liverpool respectively.

Has Manchester always been lumped in with its Siamese Twin neighbour and city in its own right Salford? It could be said that would be cheating to a certain extent.

This is an age old debate. Greater London has 32 boroughs. Greater Manchester has 10 boroughs. Yet we seem to accept that all 32 boroughs and all 9 million people constitute London, even if your address is not London. Some people don’t seem to accept that all 10 boroughs and 3 million in Greater Manchester are Manchester. What is the difference between Greater London and London? What is the difference between Greater London and Greater Manchester?

If you live in Prestwich, Radcliffe or Whitefield, you live in Manchester but your borough council is Bury. If you live in Middleton, you live in Manchester butyour borough council is Rochdale. If you live in Chadderton or Failsworth, you live in Manchester but your borough council is Oldham. If you live in Audenshawe, Denton or Droylsden, you live in Manchester but your borough council is Tameside. If you live in Stretford, Old Trafford, Urmston or Flixton, you live in Manchester, but your borough council is Trafford. If you live in Eccles, Swinton, Walkden, Little Hulton, Worsley or Irlam, you live in Manchester but your borough council is Salford. If you live in Atherton or Tyldsley you live in Manchester but your borough council is Wigan.

 

[Nottingham59]

I find night-time satellite images help me think about the relative sizes of the various conurbations in the UK.






(Image Sourced from https://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/78000/78674/london_lights_2012087_lrg.jpg)

From this perspective, I'd say that Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield and Huddersfield should have a 12tph metro shuttle service between the city centres. And that would be more useful than two stops in West Yorkshire on any NPR High Speed line between the city regions of Liverpool - Manchester - West Yorkshire - Tyneside

 

[Ianno87]

"My city is bigger than your city!"

"My Dad is bigger than your Dad!"

Etc

 

[Purple Orange]

Amd going off those images, it is better to link Liverpool & Manchester with a better metro frequency.

 

[Glenn1969]

If you live in Bury etc you live in Greater Manchester. This is a County like Greater London

 

[Purple Orange]

"My city is bigger than your city!"

"My Dad is bigger than your Dad!"

Etc

Not at all. It is recognising where you live.

If you live in Bury etc you live in Greater Manchester. This is a County like Greater London

So what is the population of London?

 

[Glenn1969]

Not at all. It is recognising where you live.


So what is the population of London?

8.9m (divided into 32 boroughs the largest of which is Barnet and none of which has a population of more than 395,000)

 

[Purple Orange]

8.9m (divided into 32 boroughs the largest of which is Barnet and none of which has a population of more than 395,000)

Therefore the population of Manchester is 2.8 million by that logic.

 

[Glenn1969]

That's Greater Manchester. I think people who live in Bolton, Wigan, Bury, Rochdale , Oldham, Stockport et all would be annoyed to be told their town are actually just suburbs of Manchester

 

[Purple Orange]

That's Greater Manchester. I think people who live in Bolton, Wigan, Bury, Rochdale , Oldham, Stockport et all would be annoyed to be told their town are actually just suburbs of Manchester

Not at all, that is conflating the boroughs with the towns. Bury has circa 100,000 people living in it, but circa 200,000 in the borough. Are you going to tell the person who lives in Prestwich, Manchester, M25 or the person who lives in Urmston, Manchester, M41 that they don’t live in Manchester because their borough council is different? So the people from Bury, the town, are from Bury, yet the people from the same borough but live in Prestwich are from Manchester. That is why the council boundaries do not reflect the size of our cities.

Are people who live in Wetherby from a town called Wetherby or a city called Leeds with miles of countryside between the two?

 

[Glenn1969]

M41 is a postcode. By the same token people from Todmorden must be confused because they have an Oldham postcode but live in Yorkshire

 

[Purple Orange]

M41 is a postcode. By the same token people from Todmorden must be confused because they have an Oldham postcode but live in Yorkshire

Yes M41 is just a postcode, but their address is Urmston, Manchester or Prestwich, Manchester. It’s not Urmston, Trafford or Prestwich, Bury which is the point I was making.

 

[snowball]

Can we please have a separate permanent thread for discussions about city populations and boundaries and keep them out of threads about rail projects?

 

[Glenn1969]

I see it as important because it shows clearly that Bradford as an authority area should benefit from NPR due to quite a big catchment area

 

[Purple Orange]

Can we please have a separate permanent thread for discussions about city populations and boundaries and keep them out of threads about rail projects?

Fine. I think I’ve made clearly made the point that council boundaries are no reflection of the size of a given town or city.

I see it as important because it shows clearly that Bradford as an authority area should benefit from NPR due to quite a big catchment area

And perhaps it should, but to do that we need to be consistent.

 

[joeneat]

Not today.



Did you see the phrase "This was based on what the population was back in 1981" in my previous post?

I was surprised with 3) and 4) as in later years I believed it was Manchester and Liverpool respectively.

Has Manchester always been lumped in with its Siamese Twin neighbour and city in its own right Salford? It could be said that would be cheating to a certain extent.

Local authority areas are no reflection of the size of a city. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_urban_areas_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

[SuperNova]

I see it as important because it shows clearly that Bradford as an authority area should benefit from NPR due to quite a big catchment area

Here's the issue - more areas should benefit too. It's a shortcoming of this project which has largely been driven by those only interested (TfN) in city regions to an extent, and not even all the city regions in the North of England. How does NPR in its current guise benefit Wakefield? It doesn't, Teesside too.

 

[yorkie]

Edit: Some other threads that may be of interest include:

• Speculative NPR timetable
• NPR Routes
• Manchester Piccadilly - post HS2 & NPR Services
• What to do with HS2 and NPR
• Suggested new Warrington - Widnes alignment for HS2 Liverpool branch and NPR trains.
• Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Suggestions and speculation
• HS2 & NPR Service Proposal
• Bridging the Gap - TPE today to NPR tomorrow
• Manchester - Sheffield NPR plans
• Alternative suggestions for High Speed 2 (HS2) extensions and Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR)
• Alternatives to NPR, could any existing alignments serve express trains better?
• NPR v TP Electrification or is it really a blend of the two?
• Any ‘quick’ win early HS2/NPR stages possible?
• Bradford council proposal for a new NPR station

 

[WatcherZero]

New document on the economic case for NPR by TfTN seems to have been slipped out last week. Theres a much better map of the network on the 3rd page than has previously been released.

Northern-Powerhouse-Rail-Connect.pdf (transportforthenorth.com)

 

[Purple Orange]

New document on the economic case for NPR by TfTN seems to have been slipped out last week. Theres a much better map of the network on the 3rd page than has previously been released.

Northern-Powerhouse-Rail-Connect.pdf (transportforthenorth.com)

It’s interesting that the Liverpool - Manchester journey time has been quoted at a rather specific 29.5 minutes.

 

[Glenn1969]

It's also interesting that a lot of existing lines (to Hull, Newcastle and Sheffield via both Marple and Stockport) are listed as NPR routes

 

[WAO]

I've heard of Rotherham Central and Rotherham Masborough but where is Rotherham Mainline or Parkgate?

WAO

 

[Glenn1969]

New NPR station that TfN want Sunak to fund I think. Barnsley Dearne Valley is a planned HS2b/NPR station. Trouble is how many people still think HS2 will actually reach Leeds?

 

[WatcherZero]

Corridor	Preferred network options	Best current stopping service		Best potential stopping service with Northern Powerhouse Rail
		Frequency	Minutes	Frequency	Minutes
Leeds - Newcastle	Infrastructure upgrades and use of HS2 (Stops - York, Darlington, Durham)	3	81-91	4	72.5
Leeds - Hull	Infrastructure upgrades (Stops - Selby, Brough)	1	56-63	2	50
Sheffield - Leeds	Infrastructure upgrades and use of HS2 (Stops - Rotherham Main Line/Barnsley Dearne Valley)	1	39-42	4	23.5
Sheffield - Hull	Infrastructure upgrades (Stops - Rotherham Main Line/Meadowhall, Doncaster, Selby/Goole, Brough)	1	76-84	2	66
Manchester - Sheffield	Infrastructure upgrades (Stops - Stockport/Hope/Dore)	2	49-57	4	34.5
Manchester - Leeds	New line serving central Bradford (Stops - Bradford)	4	48-61	6	30
Liverpool - Manchester	New line via central Warrington (Stops - Warrington, Manchester Airport)	4	35-51	6	29.5

 

[Glenn1969]

but I guess time will tell re whether Sunak is prepared to fund these preferred options and whether HS2 will actually get to Leeds or be descoped to finish at Toton

 

[takno]

but I guess time will tell re whether Sunak is prepared to fund these preferred options and whether HS2 will actually get to Leeds or be descoped to finish at Toton

I can't see anybody stopping it at Toton. It's either going to Leeds or the Eastern leg isn't happening at all