Northern Rail - A Suburban Service for Cities ?

[Bletchleyite]

Some 185's might fit the bill nicely in the future

Would be ideal. I'd pay an extra fiver (say) for 1st on one of those. Good views, big windows and lots of tables, even in Standard, and powerful enough for the hills.

It is of course personal opinion and I think the weather on the day you travel can make a difference plus the rolling stock you are in. I think it is different to many areas in that it has rolling hills, moorland and good views of Ingelborough. To me it is quintessential Northern England. I respect if you feel differently however and can understand your point, we have many nice lines in this country and the West Highland Line it certainly isn't in terms of scenic splendour. I think it's a good, short, scenic journey with excellent connections at each end so it's easy to get home again

Fair point, it's also useful for doing a lap of the S&C and Shap. It's one of those lines that I'd enjoy if it was a journey I was doing anyway (it's not ugly - for instance it's hardly the drab boring flatness of most of the ECML or anything in East Anglia) but I don't think I'd otherwise go out of my way.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Echo most of your comments @Iskra .

Whilst the Little North Western might not be jaw-droppingly scenic, at least you don't get the sense of travelling along an enclosed "green tunnel" (i.e. lots of lineside trees and shrubbery) like you do on some rural/semi-rural routes, including heritage lines.

But is the primary function of the Bentham line to be that of a tourist line?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But is the primary function of the Bentham line to be that of a tourist line?

I think as I mentioned upthread the issue with it is that it doesn't really have much of a function. It primarily only serves three very small places along the way. For much of the day even from Lancaster you'd get to Leeds quicker via Preston due to the low frequency.

I'd not want it to close any more than I want any line to close (I don't), but if it did I doubt more than about 20 people would actually notice.

 

[Iskra]

Would be ideal. I'd pay an extra fiver (say) for 1st on one of those. Good views, big windows and lots of tables, even in Standard, and powerful enough for the hills.



Fair point, it's also useful for doing a lap of the S&C and Shap. It's one of those lines that I'd enjoy if it was a journey I was doing anyway (it's not ugly - for instance it's hardly the drab boring flatness of most of the ECML or anything in East Anglia) but I don't think I'd otherwise go out of my way.

I would also be happy to a pay a modest premium for that. I think it has a realistic chance of happening at some point in the future too

I agree it is very useful for completing a lap of the North West and have used it many times for that!

 

[yorksrob]

The Bentham line is very pleasent and scenic.

It's also very handy for those of us in Yorkshire with friends and connections in Northern Lancashire and Cumbria.

 

[peters]

Timetables are still scaled well back on many urban routes to major city centres. Unfortunately it's the simple reality that travel short distances to major centres is the only way local rail is competitive, and therefore that's why resources are being directed at these trips. Given the financial crisis the industry is facing, it's a good job there are any services at all on rural routes.

I can't think of local rail route out of Manchester that doesn't serve a mixture of urban and rural areas. Even places like Stalybridge and Marple are small towns surrounded by countryside, while some Greater Manchester stations like Smithy Bridge and Middlewood are more rural than rural parts of Lancashire and Cheshire.

The Sheffield to Lincoln line is extremely rural in places but it also connects a small city to a large city.

From what my local council have said I understand it would be illegal if they subsided a bus service which directly competed with an existing bus service. Yet it seems the government are currently spending money supporting train services which directly compete with commercial bus services even where the train doesn't necessarily have a significant time advantage over the bus. For example, a train starts at Hazel Grove at 06:06 and gets to Stockport at 06:13, yet there's a bus at 06:13 which gets to Stockport at 06:25.

Unfortunately by the time the Road Map was announced with the April 12th date the railway timetable for the period through to May 17th including Union agreed traincrew rosters had been agreed and put to bed for the majority of TOCs making it very difficult to do fundamental changes to rostering patterns.

I don't follow this. Are train crews being made to use large chunks of their annual leave before 17th May to increase resilience after that date? If not what's the issue?

 

[Adam0984]

The trains on the S&C are extremely lightly loaded at the moment with the majority of people using it for connections to/from Glasgow who would either not travel or go via Preston or the ECML if they had to travel. I think the 18xx trains from each end should have run but its a case of balancing the crews. Can't comment on the Bentham line but I'd imagine it will be pretty similar especially with the train starting/ending at Skipton. There is going to be a surge in people before the new timetable but I hope that's going to be managed by strengthened trains

 

[ChrisC]

I've made no mention of ownersip of the company !

I think that generally - given the circumstances I don't dissapprove of railway companies cutting down on routes with frequent services.

I'm glad you've mentioned Normanton. We (the Hallam line) have dropped from a stopper and two semi-fasts an hour to just the stopper. Normy has lost some peak time services. I think that this is an acceptable reduction because the route still has an acceptable day long service.

The same can't be said for services west of Skipton where everything stops past 18:00. This is not a usable day long service.

It’s certainly not very good that timetables are remaining so reduced for next few weeks between Leeds and Carlisle/Lancaster, especially with no evening services. At least the full timetable is being restored in May, including the recent improvements on the Bentham Line.

This is not the case on the Hallam Line as only one of the two semi-fasts is returning to the timetable in May. There will only be 2 tph from Leeds to Sheffield on the Hallam Line, the stopper (via Castleford) and the Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham. The Leeds-Sheffield-Lincoln train is not coming back in May but will only running between Sheffield and Lincoln. Except for at peak times the Sheffield to Gainsborough Central train is also not being restored meaning that the Lincoln trains will be back to stopping at all stations between Sheffield and Worksop. This also results in a wait for a connection at Worksop of 53 minutes for anyone travelling on the Robin Hood Line from the Mansfield area to Sheffield. Only good point is a very good connection at Worksop in the opposite direction.

Will these missing trains be restored to the timetable later in the summer or will it be December. I’ve always found the Leeds-Sheffield semi fasts very busy when I have used the on Saturdays, especially between Barnsley and Meadowhall. I wonder if the Leeds to Nottingham will have to be strengthened from 2 carriages.

 

[Iskra]

Will these missing trains be restored to the timetable later in the summer or will it be December. I’ve always found the Leeds-Sheffield semi fasts very busy when I have used the on Saturdays, especially between Barnsley and Meadowhall. I wonder if the Leeds to Nottingham will have to be strengthened from 2 carriages.

The retail offering at Meadowhall is now vastly reduced and many people who have never/rarely shopped online before have learnt to do so during the pandemic. I suspect it will be a long time before traditional retail recovers or transforms into something that creates as much footfall as it did pre-pandemic. I see more traffic between Barnsley and Leeds for getting drunk when the pubs reopen...

 

[ChrisC]

The retail offering at Meadowhall is now vastly reduced and many people who have never/rarely shopped online before have learnt to do so during the pandemic. I suspect it will be a long time before traditional retail recovers or transforms into something that creates as much footfall as it did pre-pandemic. I see more traffic between Barnsley and Leeds for getting drunk when the pubs reopen.

I get your point. I think the main issue is the loss of one semi-fast train each hour between Leeds and Sheffield. The hourly X/C trains can be extremely busy and so this is quite a reduction in services between these two major cities. Also the Bradford to Nottingham fast service which was going to run via Moorthorpe does not seem to be going to happen. Leeds to Sheffield does need a better service not a reduction in frequency.

 

[Ianno87]

The retail offering at Meadowhall is now vastly reduced and many people who have never/rarely shopped online before have learnt to do so during the pandemic. I suspect it will be a long time before traditional retail recovers or transforms into something that creates as much footfall as it did pre-pandemic. I see more traffic between Barnsley and Leeds for getting drunk when the pubs reopen...

Meadowhall might bounce back when its eateries are open properly again.

 

[yorksrob]

It’s certainly not very good that timetables are remaining so reduced for next few weeks between Leeds and Carlisle/Lancaster, especially with no evening services. At least the full timetable is being restored in May, including the recent improvements on the Bentham Line.

This is not the case on the Hallam Line as only one of the two semi-fasts is returning to the timetable in May. There will only be 2 tph from Leeds to Sheffield on the Hallam Line, the stopper (via Castleford) and the Leeds-Sheffield-Nottingham. The Leeds-Sheffield-Lincoln train is not coming back in May but will only running between Sheffield and Lincoln. Except for at peak times the Sheffield to Gainsborough Central train is also not being restored meaning that the Lincoln trains will be back to stopping at all stations between Sheffield and Worksop. This also results in a wait for a connection at Worksop of 53 minutes for anyone travelling on the Robin Hood Line from the Mansfield area to Sheffield. Only good point is a very good connection at Worksop in the opposite direction.

Will these missing trains be restored to the timetable later in the summer or will it be December. I’ve always found the Leeds-Sheffield semi fasts very busy when I have used the on Saturdays, especially between Barnsley and Meadowhall. I wonder if the Leeds to Nottingham will have to be strengthened from 2 carriages.

When you have a service with three trains an hour, there's more scope to increase things incrementally. Throughout this whole time the Hallam stopper has tended to be one of the consistently busier trains I've used.

Hopefully they'll sort out the longer distance connections soonish.

 

[Iskra]

Meadowhall might bounce back when its eateries are open properly again.

Maybe, the cinema could help too, but it's lost/losing some really big stores. We will see!

 

[30907]

In case this hasn't been pointed out before, the service operating from mid May over the S&C is the full timetable; the Bentham line gets 6 of 8 - annoyingly, the 10xx from Leeds is missing - which is still more than operated from the early 90s for 25 years.

 

[Iskra]

In case this hasn't been pointed out before, the service operating from mid May over the S&C is the full timetable; the Bentham line gets 6 of 8 - annoyingly, the 10xx from Leeds is missing - which is still more than operated from the early 90s for 25 years.

Before the 90's it was even less I believe too. I have already pointed that out, but I'm glad you have too; there is some enduring myth that the Little North Western and Settle-Carlisle lines are still badly served. That has not been the case for decades. Both lines had just finally got a decent and very usable timetable pre-covid, hopefully we can get back to that ASAP.

 

[yorksrob]

In case this hasn't been pointed out before, the service operating from mid May over the S&C is the full timetable; the Bentham line gets 6 of 8 - annoyingly, the 10xx from Leeds is missing - which is still more than operated from the early 90s for 25 years.

Before the 90's it was even less I believe too. I have already pointed that out, but I'm glad you have too; there is some enduring myth that the Little North Western and Settle-Carlisle lines are still badly served. That has not been the case for decades. Both lines had just finally got a decent and very usable timetable pre-covid, hopefully we can get back to that ASAP.

The 10:xx from Leeds to Lancaster has been missing since lockdown 1.

I don't disagree that the current standard timetable for both routes is very good. They just need to be running something closer to it earlier than May.

 

[Taunton]

It's worth noting that with people being confined to this country the S&C is likely to be very busy pretty soon!

Let's hope they don't restart that other annoying practice on that line of reserving a load of the seats for a coach party (usually between Settle and Appleby), whereas there is no ability on any Northern service for 'normal' passengers to reserve seats at all.

This annoyed me when I was making a "genuine" business trip, from Doncaster to Carlisle. Two car train, with one fully reserved for a coach party doing such a fraction of the route, Hellifield to Appleby. At least the guard was proactive and allowed those only going up to where the coach party got on to sit in the second car, but in the one remaining one there were standing passengers beyond Settle.

It was amusing to hear of the party using the train to "reduce emissions". Their tour coach drove in parallel, empty, between the two points ...

 

[Starmill]

Has it actually been confirmed that the extra trains are running in May? Their being in the open data as of today doesn't confirm as much, especially if nobody has seen a PDF timetable.

 

[northernchris]

There is going to be a surge in people before the new timetable but I hope that's going to be managed by strengthened trains

Indeed, there must be units which aren't required until May that can easily be deployed

 

[yorksrob]

Has it actually been confirmed that the extra trains are running in May? Their being in the open data as of today doesn't confirm as much, especially if nobody has seen a PDF timetable.

I was told that they would be trying to restore timetables from May "where possible".

 

[30907]

The 10:xx from Leeds to Lancaster has been missing since lockdown 1.

I don't disagree that the current standard timetable for both routes is very good. They just need to be running something closer to it earlier than May.

HMG guidance for the relevant period, like it or not, says

People should continue to work from home where they can and minimise the number of journeys they make where possible, avoiding travel at the busiest times and routes.

Whether that will be adhered to is an interesting question, but I am not convinced there will be a huge demand for the missing trains (possibly the evening Ribblehead for socially-distanced Three Peaks walkers?).

 

[yorksrob]

HMG guidance for the relevant period, like it or not, says

Whether that will be adhered to is an interesting question, but I am not convinced there will be a huge demand for the missing trains (possibly the evening Ribblehead for socially-distanced Three Peaks walkers?).

"Minimising" the number of journeys one makes isn't the same as not making any journeys at all.

If someone continued to work from home but still travelled to take their weekly walk in the Dales, I don't think it would be stretching things to argue that they were still minimising their journeys made.

 

[yorkie]

The harsh reality is that the railways have a small fraction of the regular passengers at the moment and that demand is likely to be heavily suppressed for at least the next 5 weeks or so.

This, combined with the potential for some staff to be isolating etc, is not a recipe for a full timetable unfortunately, however desirable that may be.

 

[scrapy]

Unfortunately by the time the Road Map was announced with the April 12th date the railway timetable for the period through to May 17th including Union agreed traincrew rosters had been agreed and put to bed for the majority of TOCs making it very difficult to do fundamental changes to rostering patterns.

The Railway breathed a collective sigh of relief the next stage wasn’t later than the May T/T change.

Railway Planning Teams across the country have been pretty agile but there’s only so much they can do before running out of time to actually plan the timetable.

That's not the case at Northern. STP (short term planning) diagrams can be introduced with a few days notice and agreed links have no actual end date so new links can be agreed to replace them with a weeks notice to the crews involved. Some depots are currently still working on links based on last Decembers timetable with all jobs amended to STP diagrams. Both ASLEF and RMT have agreed changes and been flexible throughout the pandemic.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

That's not the case at Northern. STP (short term planning) diagrams can be introduced with a few days notice and agreed links have no actual end date so new links can be agreed to replace them with a weeks notice to the crews involved. Some depots are currently still working on links based on last Decembers timetable with all jobs amended to STP diagrams. Both ASLEF and RMT have agreed changes and been flexible throughout the pandemic.

That’s flexible but I guess it doesn’t get around someone is needed to write those links and there’s just not the industry planning resource spare for a further late change when everything was focussed on the May change.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The harsh reality is that the railways have a small fraction of the regular passengers at the moment and that demand is likely to be heavily suppressed for at least the next 5 weeks or so.

This, combined with the potential for some staff to be isolating etc, is not a recipe for a full timetable unfortunately, however desirable that may be.

Though this time is a bit different from last in that, as from about 55 minutes' time, you can take a train ride where you like (within reason; the legislation doesn't specify distance, though, nor does it actually bar overnight stays, though wild camping or kipping on a bench would be the only options open unless you have a support bubble! ). Last time public transport was "essential only" for a long while, this time it isn't, presumably because it was realised just how discriminatory that was against non-car-owners.

 

[Watershed]

That said, if the ’essential journeys only’ rule persists, the TOCs will do no more than is required to facilitate essential travel (often because they don’t have the staff or logistics to do so, however much they might want to)

The staffing issue is a real one, albeit "because of Covid" is a somewhat convenient explanation of how this has arisen. Self-isolation and confirmed cases have played only a very minor role.

Given that there are still significant restrictions on our activities until May 17th, when we see the full reopening of hospitality and most other leisure activities, it wouldn’t surprise me if operators like Northern kept the ‘essential travel only’ rule until then and then restored a full timetable at the May timetable change.

I would be pleasantly surprised if the timetable currently showing in booking engines etc. is the one that ends up operating from 16 May.

 

[quantinghome]

It's great that routes like the Bentham line still exist, and indeed they have more comprehensive timetables than ever before. But complaining about timetable gaps in a lightly used rural line is spectacularly missing the point.

 

[yorksrob]

It's great that routes like the Bentham line still exist, and indeed they have more comprehensive timetables than ever before. But complaining about timetable gaps in a lightly used rural line is spectacularly missing the point.

Indeed.

For these routes, the standard timetables are very good and more than adequate for the areas they serve.

The problem is that Northern Rail seem very ready and quick to trash those timetables and extremely slow and sluggish to restore them, to the extent where I feel that there is an organisational bias against rural services in favour of more urban ones. This doesn't inspire confidence for the future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is that Northern Rail seem very ready and quick to trash those timetables and extremely slow and sluggish to restore them, to the extent where I feel that there is an organisational bias against rural services in favour of more urban ones. This doesn't inspire confidence for the future.

It is probably a sensible bias; with temporarily limited resources it makes more sense to concentrate them on the most-used lines. It's not just Northern; Marston Vale services remain bustituted.