Northern Rail Details Taken (Another)

[adop]

Hi all,

Sorry I know this is another thread about ticket inspectors taking details, I had my details taken yesterday and I'm feeling extremely anxious about it.

I travelled from [undisclosed station] to Manchester Victoria. At [undisclosed station] the ticket office was shut and the ticket machine was out of order. I boarded the train and tried to buy a ticket from the conductor but my card was declined. I got to the station and went to buy a ticket where my card was then declined again. I was told to go to the other ticket office but instead I left the station thinking "what's the point my card keeps getting declined and I also had no cash!" Upon leaving the station I was stopped and my details were taken, they said I'd receive a letter in 2-3 weeks.

I am unsure what to expect, sure it's my fault that I didn't buy a ticket but I made numerous efforts to try and purchase one. I had money in the account and the card in question works absolutely fine (as proven by a purchase later in the day).

 

[bb21]

What purchase did you use it for later on that day?

 

[adop]

What purchase did you use it for later on that day?

Just some clothes, nothing train related. I didn't take the train to get back home.

 

[yorkie]

Was this an online-only card?

You say it worked for other transactions... were any of them offline transactions?

Northern are likely to ask for your version of events, and then depending on various factors either issue a 'failure to pay' warning or, perhaps more likely, ask you to pay an £80 out of court settlement.

If you don't give in and pay they're likely to then prosecute, unless you turn out to have legal representation, in which case they may well drop it (see this thread for an example of a case which was dropped). Attempting to represent yourself would be very unwise; you'd probably lose.

 

[adop]

Was this an online-only card?

You say it worked for other transactions... were any of them offline transactions?

See above post . Card is absolutely not at fault, I bought some clothes in a store a few hours after arriving in Manchester.

 

[1D53]

The ticket office at Marsden was shut?

 

[bb21]

So they were used in a shop I assume?

Did your card ever work at a mobile ticket machine before? (Not the ticket office but with the guard on his machine?) If no, then chances are you have an online only card which requires realtime authorisation, and is not valid for onboard use on the mobile ticket machines guards carry.

Obviously as you appreciate your mistake is walking away rather than going to the ticket office. Had you followed the instructions and the card still failed, there would have been other methods staff could adopt to allow you to pay your fare at a later date, or being let off if extremely lucky. Once you ignored the instruction to use the ticket office, that can then be quite easily interpreted as an attempt to avoid paying your correct fare.

Since this is Northern, I would say wait for their letter to arrive and you should then have an opportunity to put your version of the story across and meanwhile you have some time to decide what step to take next.

For a first offence, chances are you will be asked to pay an £80 penalty in addition to your fare. This is usually offered to first-time offenders to give them a chance to keep the matter out of court. You could be tried under the Regulation of Railways Act from what you described, and conviction would give you a fine and a criminal record. Because no working ticket issuing facility were available at Marsden, I don't think you could be tried under the lesser Railway Byelaws, conviction under which carries no criminal record, just a fine and an unpleasant court appearance to remember.

For repeat offenders then all bets are off.

 

[adop]

The ticket office at Marsden was shut?

I avoided giving the specific station, didn't feel it was entirely relevant but yes the ticket office was shut where I boarded the train.

 

[First class]

So because a bank put a restriction on your card, (online only capability), you decided to simply walk off without paying?

Open and shut fare evasion case, but fortunately, you may be able to pay a Northern Rail £80 FPN to avoid a criminal record.

If you had filled up with petrol, and your card declined, I take it you would have just driven off too?

Of course not, the correct course of action in both instances is to apologise and provide your name and address to sort later. You decided to try and do a runner and get a free ride.

 

[adop]

So they were used in a shop I assume?

Did your card ever work at a mobile ticket machine before? (Not the ticket office but with the guard on his machine?) If no, then chances are you have an online only card which requires realtime authorisation, and is not valid for onboard use on the mobile ticket machines guards carry.

Obviously as you appreciate your mistake is walking away rather than going to the ticket office. Had you followed the instructions and the card still failed, there would have been other methods staff could adopt to allow you to pay your fare at a later date, or being let off if extremely lucky. Once you ignored the instruction to use the ticket office, that can then be quite easily interpreted as an attempt to avoid paying your correct fare.

Since this is Northern, I would say wait for their letter to arrive and you should then have an opportunity to put your version of the story across and meanwhile you have some time to decide what step to take next.

For a first offence, chances are you will be asked to pay an £80 penalty in addition to your fare. This is usually offered to first-time offenders to give them a chance to keep the matter out of court. You could be tried under the Regulation of Railways Act from what you described, and conviction would give you a fine and a criminal record. Because no working ticket issuing facility were available at Marsden, I don't think you could be tried under the lesser Railway Byelaws, conviction under which carries no criminal record, just a fine and an unpleasant court appearance to remember.

For repeat offenders then all bets are off.

Thanks for your advice. It's definitely worked on a mobile ticket machine before but I also recall it not working previously also. I figured it was down the the signal on the train). I've never had any problem when being at the station even if it is a mobile machine.

If there's a penalty will that give me a criminal record? Or would there only be a criminal record if I had to go to court? I would be a first time "offender".

 

[DaleCooper]

I avoided giving the specific station, didn't feel it was entirely relevant but yes the ticket office was shut where I boarded the train.

It could be very relevant as some members may have personal knowledge of the station.

 

[Agent_c]

It doesn't mean the card wasn't at fault, it could be the bank wasn't accepting transactions at that time or blocked the transaction as suspected fraud. Correct action would have been to phone your bank (or use another card/payment method).

But that doesn't help now. Relax for now, when you get the letter explain your side with a grovelling apology, and save to pay the penalty.

 

[bb21]

Thanks for your advice. It's definitely worked on a mobile ticket machine before but I also recall it not working previously also. I figured it was down the the signal on the train). I've never had any problem when being at the station even if it is a mobile machine.

If there's a penalty will that give me a criminal record? Or would there only be a criminal record if I had to go to court? I would be a first time "offender".

Mobile ticket machines do not do realtime authorisation with your bank. They don't use any mobile data or anything like that. Just a standalone machine with no connection to the outside world.

There is a chance that if your card had offline capabilities that it either maxed out (from a few offline transactions previously) or that the machine could be faulty. (It cannot be ruled out but a few faulty ones in a row sounds unlikely.) If you want to find out more as to whether your card is online only or whether it has offline capabilities, your bank should be able to tell you that.

You will not get a criminal record if the case does not go to court. Indeed that is the whole purpose of the £80 penalty.

 

[yorkie]

If there's a penalty will that give me a criminal record? Or would there only be a criminal record if I had to go to court? I would be a first time "offender".

Only if it goes to court

If they Prosecute you for a Regulation of Railways Act (RoRA) offence (which requires demonstrating you displayed intent to avoid the fare), rather than a strict liability byelaw offence. See Current Framework - Railway Specific Legislation for full details.

A byelaw offence shouldn't succeed due to there being no ticket issuing facility at Marsden.

A RoRA offence could succeed, though a good solicitor may well be able to successfully defend such a case based on the fact you did try to pay, however it's unlikely you'd win as it could - probably relatively easily - be argued that, as you failed to follow instructions to go to the other ticket office and instead walked out, therefore even if you originally intended to pay, at that moment in time your intention changed and you saw an opportunity to avoid payment. I am not a lawyer and if you wish to argue on this basis you need to seek legal advice. Someone on this forum who is much more familiar with our legal system may well be able to give you advice, but at the end of the day it is difficult to predict what evidence each party would present and how a Court would react to that evidence.
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It could be very relevant as some members may have personal knowledge of the station.

I have used this station, and I don't recall there being any sign of a ticket office nor ticket machines.

The NRE website says "Ticket Office: No" and "Ticket machines: No" which is consistent with my recollection, however I am aware Northern have been installing more machines recently, so it's possible they did install one at Marsden so it may well have been out of order.

As for the ticket office being shut, I'd guess it's been shut for a few decades?!

 

[gray1404]

Are Northern employing plain clothed inspectors at the moment? I did notice on here stories of a lot of people being singled out as if their behaviour has been getting watched from a far then they are being approached.

My friend had this problem when traveling down South last week, he card would not work on the train nor was it accepted at a ticket office or in the supermarket near by because he tried to get cashback. The station didn't have any ATMs so he exited the station went to an ATM nearby and returned to pay his fare in cash.

A simple phone call to that bank though resolved everything.

 

[adop]

I have used this station, and I don't recall there being any sign of a ticket office nor ticket machines.

The NRE website says "Ticket Office: No" and "Ticket machines: No" which is consistent with my recollection, however I am aware Northern have been installing more machines recently, so it's possible they did install one at Marsden so it may well have been out of order.

As for the ticket office being shut, I'd guess it's been shut for a few decades?!

Apologies Yorkie you must have missed my previous post - it was not Marsden but I don't want provide the real station. I can assure you the ticket office was 100% shut with the shutters down as I arrived 10 minutes early so I'd have time to buy a ticket.

 

[DaleCooper]

A byelaw offence shouldn't succeed due to there being no ticket issuing facility at Marsden.

I have used this station, and I don't recall there being any sign of a ticket office nor ticket machines.

The NRE website says "Ticket Office: No" and "Ticket machines: No" which is consistent with my recollection, however I am aware Northern have been installing more machines recently, so it's possible they did install one at Marsden so it may well have been out of order.

As for the ticket office being shut, I'd guess it's been shut for a few decades?!

But apparently it wasn't Marsden, or did I misunderstand post #8?

 

[yorkie]

But apparently it wasn't Marsden, or did I misunderstand post #8?

Ah, I see the original post was inaccurate. I now wonder if anything else was inaccurate.

I do not like such inaccuracies being posted, so I shall edit the original post to simply state the station was redacted.

adop - I suggest seeking legal advice (if an out of court settlement cannot be agreed) from someone who you are prepared to disclose the full details to.

 

[Kite159]

Doesn't Manchester Victoria have barriers now so you can't just "walk" out without paying?

 

[adop]

Ah, I see the original post was inaccurate. I now wonder if anything else was inaccurate.

I do not like such inaccuracies being posted, so I shall edit the original post to simply state the station was redacted.

adop - I suggest seeking legal advice (if an out of court settlement cannot be agreed) from someone who you are prepared to disclose the full details to.

Thanks for all your advice. It was an effort to protect my privacy, nothing malicious.

 

[furlong]

What you said when you were stopped leaving the station is likely to be important in determining the outcome.
E.g. if you said nothing except for your name and address, or if you said because your card wasn't working you'd decided not to pay.

 

[DaleCooper]

Thanks for all your advice. It was an effort to protect my privacy, nothing malicious.

I doubt anyone could have identified you by knowing the station and all you achieved was raising doubts, perhaps unfounded, about the rest of your narrative which makes it harder for good advice to be given.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Just for clarity, I suspect that this advice could be misinterpreted:

If you don't give in and pay they're likely to then prosecute, unless you turn out to have legal representation, in which case they may well drop it.
. . .

Attempting to represent yourself would be very unwise; you'd probably lose.

It is generally true that, in retrospect, prosecutions which have been abandoned are more likely to be prosecutions in which the Defendant was represented. But that correlation is not causal (i.e. they are not abandoned BECAUSE the defendant was represented).
Circumstances in which the prosecution's evidence is inadequate to secure a prosecution to the required standard should be abandoned (as it would be a pointeless waste of time to pursue it), but to articulate the arguments correctly will, for most people, be better done by someone familiar with legal process - it doesn't take a QC to do this, a junior in a local law firm would be adequately competent.
The phrease "unless you turn out to have legal representation" might give the unintended impression that it is the representation that leads to the abandonment, where in fact it is the evidence that leads to the abandonment, which is something best done with representation.

As for the presumption that a Defendant without representation or a Litigant in Person (LIP) generally fail, then this too is quite true. But again, it is not a causal connection. I've seen some deeply moving and tearful scenes when the unrepresented and LIPs have presented powerful arguments but without legal merit (just this week, two of the country's most experienced Judges on the Queens Bench have bent over backwards against all protocol to assist a tearful LIP with an outrageous but sterile claim against a limb of the state [I can't name names]).
The reason for the failure is that the Evidence is inadequate, and no legal representation will turn Evidence which does not prove a point of fact into Evidence which does prove that point of fact, so the proper advice would be to avoid wasting money on representation, and to avoid wasting money on the costs of a Not Guilty plea. This leads to the correspondence of 'loosing' with 'representing yourself' as you've rightly stated, but it doesn't explain the cause of that connection, which isn't one of representation.

Hope this helps.

 

[DaleCooper]

This leads to the correspondence of 'loosing' with 'representing yourself' as you've rightly stated, but it doesn't explain the cause of that connection, which isn't one of representation.

I am unfamiliar with the legal term "loosing", please clarify.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

My tiping wood benifit from a secretry whod do it four me beter than me.

 

[reb0118]

With regard to the card sometimes working on board & sometimes not in my recent travels throughout Northernland I have noticed many guards just swiping cards. Do you remember if your card was accepted when swiped and rejected when, correctly, placed in the chip 'n' pin reader?

This is for your future information as if your card is AAT (Authorise All Transactions) you will need an alternative form of payment if you wish to purchase on board as swiping cards with chips is frowned upon by the banks and is becoming less & less common - at my TOC we are no longer allowed to swipe even after obtaining telephone authorisation if the chip 'n' pin card reader has declined the sale.

 

[185]

Northern have an issue with a number of (perfectly valid) card types which fail to work with Avantix - one example was a Halifax Debit card, declined on an STM (Northern) machine, the customer refused details and barged through their gateline in the tunnel at Stockport, to the booking office where despite continuing protests from a vocal STM supervisor, the customer proceeded to buy a ticket with the card. "I told you!"

There was a time when Visa Electron and Solo were the obvious villain cards but now, there's just so many ordinary card types that simply don't go through - easy to understand how guards are just ignoring the company and swiping them willynilly.

 

[BurtonM]

Doesn't Manchester Victoria have barriers now so you can't just "walk" out without paying?

I assume the OP was let through the gateline to go to the ticket office/TVM - instead of doing so they simply proceeded to leave the station.

 

[Starmill]

I don't like the language here - "an online only card which is not valid for use onboard"? If the card isn't an electon card, it sounds like its a valid payment method to me. It's only the train company's fault the guard's machine isn't online. Most people are clueless as to wether they have this type of card or not - I know I am. It certainly works on a Pendolino though - because in the shop they have, guess what? Online card machines!
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My tiping wood benifit from a secretry whod do it four me beter than me.

On the contrary all they need do is have a solid understanding of conevntions when writing in Mixed Case..

 

[najaB]

Hmm... strange sense of deja-vu here...

I don't like the language here - "an online only card which is not valid for use onboard"? If the card isn't an electon card, it sounds like its a valid payment method to me. Most people are clueless as to wether they have this type of card or not - I know I am.

Only problem is, there's no such thing any more - at least not issued by a UK bank. They issue what used to be Electron cards but they are branded as Visa. It's no more the railway's fault than it is the customer's.

The next-generation ticket machine will, hopefully, be able to accept them.

Most people are clueless as to wether they have this type of card or not - I know I am. It certainly works on a Pendolino though - because in the shop they have, guess what? Online card machines!

Which only work where there is a strong enough 3G signal. When I used my card on board recently the lady said if it didn't process she'd just give me the coffee and bacon roll anyway. I don't see a guard being able to do the same with a first-class London-Glasgow return!