Northern Rail Huddersfield - Manchester Service : Something has to be done.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The new franchaise is suppose to start in 2013. The current franchaise was let in 2004, with a NIL GROWTH expectation.

I would like to see how the wording of the NEW franchaise will reflect the growth of passenger figures from 2004 to 2011, as the last two years of the current franchaise is stated to be dependant upon targets being met.

All the problems with the current rolling stock are directly concerned with the NIL GROWTH proviso in the existing franchaise.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

One of the main things that strikes me about the original post, is the fact you believe it's Northern's fault they're late.

Its often out of the franchisee's hands when a train is delayed, it could be down to a number of things! It could be cable theft, something on the line, train fault, absolutely anything. Its hard to say you blame Northern for this!

Carriages are set out by the DFT, and currently Northern is struggling with capacity on a number of its lines, including this one.

We have nothing to replace the Pacers as yet, so if we got rid of them, your service just might not be a service anymore - especially as Pacers make up a good slice of Northern's rolling stock.

And once again, more frequent services leads to more stock, which Northern don't have!

 

[blue sabre]

One of the main things that strikes me about the original post, is the fact you believe it's Northern's fault they're late.

Its often out of the franchisee's hands when a train is delayed, it could be down to a number of things! It could be cable theft, something on the line, train fault, absolutely anything. Its hard to say you blame Northern for this!

Carriages are set out by the DFT, and currently Northern is struggling with capacity on a number of its lines, including this one.

We have nothing to replace the Pacers as yet, so if we got rid of them, your service just might not be a service anymore - especially as Pacers make up a good slice of Northern's rolling stock.

And once again, more frequent services leads to more stock, which Northern don't have!

I think it was the case that the OP didn't/doesn't understand how the railway is ran. I'd imagine a majority of the general public would think the same as the OP.

 

[sprinterguy]

But even then, elecrtification will only release 20 diagrams worth of units, about 25 units. Won't even make any in roads into the pacer fleet and it would be enough to double up more diagrams around Manchester and Leeds, electrification, won't displace enough pacers. Unless theres an extremely agressive programme of electrification. For Northern it would mean releasing 100 units, about 80 diagrams. (Not including more diesel units for growth)

Agreed. The DfT are being incredibly naïve if they think that the North West electrification will allow any Pacers to be withdrawn. It releases too few units, and those that are freed up are needed as additional capacity across the Northern area.

There’s no avoiding the fact that Northern will need a fleet of new DMUs to replace the Pacers in the next decade, even if the Sprinter classes are good to go on for a while yet.

 

[Prodigy]

One of the main things that strikes me about the original post, is the fact you believe it's Northern's fault they're late.

Its often out of the franchisee's hands when a train is delayed, it could be down to a number of things! It could be cable theft, something on the line, train fault, absolutely anything. Its hard to say you blame Northern for this!

Carriages are set out by the DFT, and currently Northern is struggling with capacity on a number of its lines, including this one.

We have nothing to replace the Pacers as yet, so if we got rid of them, your service just might not be a service anymore - especially as Pacers make up a good slice of Northern's rolling stock.

And once again, more frequent services leads to more stock, which Northern don't have!

Erm, I actually metioned that it was Firsts fault having control over the time table....

 

[Yew]

Maybe we should divert the 172's to Northern, and cascade the pacers south?

 

[northwichcat]

Are 3 car 144s able to run Man Vic-Huddersfield services? I know the reason they wouldn't have gone on that line originally was Victoria-Huddersfield-Wakefield was a RRNW and then FNW route. However, once the Huddersfield-Wakefield section went to ATN it immediately started seeing 144s.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Erm, I actually metioned that it was Firsts fault having control over the time table....

First don't have control of the timetable?
Network Rail hire the Signallers, not First. First is just an operating company (TPE, FCC & FGW) and so whether they are late or not does not directly mean that First is to blame, same goes for Northern.

 

[Prodigy]

Are 3 car 144s able to run Man Vic-Huddersfield services? I know the reason they wouldn't have gone on that line originally was Victoria-Huddersfield-Wakefield was a RRNW and then FNW route. However, once the Huddersfield-Wakefield section went to ATN it immediately started seeing 144s.

I'm sure three car 144's used to do a few of the services, not seen one for a while though since the route stopped going to wakefield

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'm sure three car 144's used to do a few of the services, not seen one for a while though since the route stopped going to wakefield

The 144's tend to run services out of leeds and sheffield where they are based overnight (to best part of my knowledge) so i would imagine that explains why they dont serve man vic huddersfield

 

[Nym]

Vic - Huddersfeild is a Victoria route, so it's run with stock from Newton Heath, so you have a choice of 142, 150, or 156, and I have personally seen all of these work the diagrams. As many pepole have agreed with me, Northern need a big order of DMUs.

 

[DarloRich]

1)LATNESS- Yes, I get it some lateness is understandable especially at peak times. But really there's no excuse for a train being late at off-peak times by more than a minute or two, yet it is. I mean I used the service about seven times this past month in total and only once it was on time. Now I think the main reason for this lateness is because First Control the timetable on the lines they share with Northern, and any time First is late, Northern is late, which is stupid. Northern should have priority simply because the trains are generally for commuters added to the fact that First can make up with trains that could probably treble the speed of Northerns. We don't want to be waiting around for 10 extra minutes with no explanation, lateness I'm sure doesn't affect the train company who can always say that they were within the designated late limit, but for those with connections to make, jobs to get to etc, these lates can be costly.

Firstly - I dont think First control anything that happens with train routing or control. That would be Network Rail via thier signal box staff. Secondly, Lateness happens for all kinds of reasons but form the compnay point of view PPM is what matters. 5 minutes isnt late. You forget that trains arent a service but a way of making monwey. Passengers problems dont matter - Shareholders do! I would imagine that if a train is late on a two track railway then all the ones behind it will be late. There is nothing you can do until a pssing place can be found. Thirdly, if Norterhn get priority then FTPE are late, so i guess you arent bothered about THIER passengers. That is the balance the signallers have to strike.

2)MORE CARRIAGES- 2 Carriages on a peak service back from Manchester to Huddersfield in the evening is nothing short of a joke. Northern are quick to come up with the excuse that they need the trains to be split to compensate for added peak services....but wait, they manage four in the evening....but still is that really enough? Many times passengers have been left behind in Ashton Under Lyne on the morning peak services due to over-cramping of the trains that has already occured, which quite frankly is stupid....not to mention that train cramping is extremely dangerous so why it is happening in the first place is beyond me, surely these conducters are breaking the law by letting so many people on the trains, one day these pacer trains will cave under pressure and an accident will happen, so just add more carriages, it's not hard and will save a lot of health risks being broken and it will make passengers comfortable. And for the argument of some platforms being to small, yes maybe a problem, but surely people can walk down the trains, or heck the train can fill up all the carriages on the platform then edge forward....(on another note, Northern often do not open the back two carriages at Mossley, causing much over crowding on the front two ones, oh, not to mention they don't allow you to walk into other carriages). Oh, also I have to commend the trains that serve London, never seen less than 6 carriages on these.

Yes because there a LOADS AND LOADS of extra carriages just sat in sidings wanting to be used and Northern are simply to evil/profit driven/stupid to use them! FFS THERE ARE NO EXTRA TRAINS! NONE NADA ZIP ZILCH ZERO. If there were they would be in use. Yes; Northern have the ****ty end of the stick but they try their best. Are the trains good enough? no, are there enough trains? no Are the trains they do have big enough, long enough, good enough? No What can be done about it? Somehow persuade the DfT to order some new trains. The problem is that the order to replace Northern’s units will have to be tied up with the order for a Pacaer replacement. That isn’t going to happen before the end of the franchise. Now there is lots of sense in placing that order asap but Northern wont want to contribute unless they get a new, longer franchise. Welcome to the world of the English & Wales Privatised railway .

3) Get rid of those god damn pacer trains! - I really am amazed how Northern have gotten away with using these trains for so long, and actually still believed in using them, when so many other companies have gotten rid of them, mostly selling them to Northern no doubt. These trains are not safe, and like I have said before they're a disaster waiting to happen. They actually do feel like a tin can, packing in the sardines. They are rocky, and rusty. This is where I feel what could be a nice relaxing journey on a good route is let down, by an awful uncomfortable machine, surely an update to something more modern is in order, seeing as we are in 2011 not 1985.

Yes they are terrible, yes they are a disgrace and yes I hate them but they aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. Northern don’t want them but have no choice. After all a sh*t train is better than walking to work in the rain. If they weren’t safe then they would have been withdrawn. You cant run around with an unsafe product. Yes they are horrible, but they are safe, according to the professionals, whose judgement i will take!

Northern, like most other operators don’t own any stock, they lease it form the rolling stock leasing company (ROSCO) aka the bank. Do you actually think Northern would spend money buying those skips do you. No, they can either lease them or lease nothing. Again welcome to the world of the privatised railway

4) More frequent trains? - This is my final point. Really I think if this was added the service would become ten times better already. Trains every twenty minutes meaning four an hour would definitely compensate for late trains and even out the use of passengers.QUOTE]

I don’t think there is any space or spare capacity for any extra trains. One of the main problems is that the franchise was let on a 0 growth forecast which has turn out to be ever so slightly.................... wrong! However nothing is going to change until the franchise is re let. Even then any new trains (other than hand me downs) are likely to be at least two, an more like 3, years away. IF there are any new trains ordered.

I don’t mean to be harsh and the OP is clearly a young lad who is pi**ed off with the service offered by Northern , but there is a lot wrong with the OP. I just think people need to understand the pressures faced by the companies. They have to do the best with the cards they are dealt. Unfortunately, Northern’s hands consists of 2's and 3's rather than Kings and Aces held by some other companies. It is wrong and needs to change, but it wont any time soon.

 

[tbtc]

Maybe the best hope is that all of the next Northern franchise is amalgamated into London Midland, as they seem to have no trouble getting modern stock (139, 170, 172, 350...).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe we should divert the 172's to Northern, and cascade the pacers south?

This comes under the "hope springs eternal" section of Northern's wish list. :cry:

 

[WestCoast]

Maybe the best hope is that all of the next Northern franchise is amalgamated into London Midland, as they seem to have no trouble getting modern stock (139, 170, 172, 350...).

I've always thought that the DfT has been very generous with London Midland, compared to the bad deals that Northern and East Midlands Trains (non-mainline) have got.

I agree with the above, send the 172s to Northern instead! It really is about time they got something post-BR era (apart from a couple of 180s out of desperation).

 

[sprinterguy]

Maybe the best hope is that all of the next Northern franchise is amalgamated into London Midland, as they seem to have no trouble getting modern stock (139, 170, 172, 350...).

You do have a good point there. London Midlands’ successive new train deliveries are seeing stock of late eighties vintage replaced long before similar trains in other areas of the country are showing any signs of being superseded.

If you take the potential 26 carriage order extension into account, LMs’ 172 order is the right size to replace Newton Heaths’ entire 142 fleet while offering much greater capacity. However it is much easier to replace the 150s on the Snow Hill Lines as the routes are completely self-contained and more than one operator can benefit, albeit in a smaller way, from the resulting cascade.

 

[43167]

Are 3 car 144s able to run Man Vic-Huddersfield services? I know the reason they wouldn't have gone on that line originally was Victoria-Huddersfield-Wakefield was a RRNW and then FNW route. However, once the Huddersfield-Wakefield section went to ATN it immediately started seeing 144s.

The 3-car 144's do work into Victoria on the service to/from Leeds that goes via Brighouse.

 

[tbtc]

Isn't it about time LM got something newer to replace their old 170s? These are around ten years old now, which is dragging down the average age of LM trains...

<removes tongue from cheek>

 

[Greenback]

You do have a good point there. London Midlands’ successive new train deliveries are seeing stock of late eighties vintage replaced long before similar trains in other areas of the country are showing any signs of being superseded.

If you take the potential 26 carriage order extension into account, LMs’ 172 order is the right size to replace Newton Heaths’ entire 142 fleet while offering much greater capacity. However it is much easier to replace the 150s on the Snow Hill Lines as the routes are completely self-contained and more than one operator can benefit, albeit in a smaller way, from the resulting cascade.

The clue is in the names - LONDON Midland, as opposed to 'Northern'. Guess which one the DfT takes more notice of?

 

[WestCoast]

Isn't it about time LM got something newer to replace their old 170s? These are around ten years old now, which is dragging down the average age of LM trains...

Those 323s are getting on too - why not swap some of them for Northern's 333s, so Northern can have the (more appropriate for their image) 323s?

Or just order some more 350/2s for LM!

 

[northwichcat]

Isn't it about time LM got something newer to replace their old 170s? These are around ten years old now, which is dragging down the average age of LM trains...

<removes tongue from cheek>

You obviously didn't see the BBC News bit on railways where they filmed on a Southern 171 and the passengers complained about the train they were on being old and in need of being replaced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The clue is in the names - LONDON Midland, as opposed to 'Northern'. Guess which one the DfT takes more notice of?

I wonder if it wasn't for the 350 services changing from Central Trains to Silverlink crews part way through services whether the West Midlands would have gone with North London in the new franchise.

 

[martinsh]

The clue is in the names - LONDON Midland, as opposed to 'Northern'. Guess which one the DfT takes more notice of?

So, the solution is for Northern to rename themselves London Northern and hope that DaFT don't notice they ndon't actually operate south of Sheffield ?!:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or just order some more 350/2s for LM!

Please, no more 3+2 seating !

 

[Nym]

So, the solution is for Northern to rename themselves London Northern and hope that DaFT don't notice they ndon't actually operate south of Sheffield ?!:roll:!

*Coughs loudly* NOTTINGHAM / STOKE ON TRENT

 

[Greenback]

So, the solution is for Northern to rename themselves London Northern and hope that DaFT don't notice they ndon't actually operate south of Sheffield ?!:roll:

Well it's more likely to be successful than waiting for Pacer replacements!

 

[WestCoast]

Please, no more 3+2 seating !

The thing is Northern Rail commuters don't get even get close. A LM 350/2 actually seems so luxurious when you've sat on a bus bench pacer for two hours from Leeds to Lancaster.

Although I suppose Crewe sees the worlds of TOCs collide. EMT suffering with a single dogbox 153 on the Derby route, with London Midland's shiny 350s.

London Northern has a nice ring to it, or London North Western / London North Eastern.

 

[Anvil1984]

Whilst in silly mode, TOCs and the DfT currently seem keen on standardising fleets to cut down on maintenence (spare parts etc), I can see First Scotrail, First Great Western, Arriva Trains Wales, South West Trains, East Midlands Trains and East Anglia all receive new stock to cascade 156s, 158s and mighty 153s to Northern so we dont get new build stock for many years to come. Saying that our Arriva Trains Wales and ex Wessex FGW seem to struggle like us as well so maybe just the others

 

[IanXC]

...cascade 156s, 158s and mighty 153s to Northern ...

Do you think we might be permitted to hope that the 153s could be formed back into 155s? If we ask nicely?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

London Northern has a nice ring to it, or London North Western / London North Eastern.

As a temporary measure, if Northern wanted a better name which would reflect its image, it could be called the Great Northern Railway.

 

[PR1Berske]

As night follows day, so the Forum goes onto Pacers and Northern

I too suffer from Northern's "forced hand", and I am fully aware that nothing can be done. This just makes the frustration worse! Every morning I set out on a train which is half-empty and on-time....and every evening I'm certain to be on a train which is packed-solid and late.

Northern must know their reputation is bunkum, and they must appriciate that customers have almost nothing good to say about them. If I really did have "choice" in this market, I'd choose TransPennine every sing time.

Uniting North/Trans-Pennine into a single franchise can only work in practice if the stock is upgraded. There's no point in setting up some form of "two-tier" super-region, a confederation if you like, where the coast-to-coast lines are serviced by the best in the business whilst inter-urban services are rattling along as they've always done for nearly 30 years.

 

[Invincibles]

It is interesting that every other franchise in England is split with a London route and a series of regional lines.

For this reason I do wonder whether actually it would be better to have a London North Western and London North Eastern franchise with Northern as is once again splitting between the two halves. Transpennine would then take on the trains from Manchester to Leeds and Manchester to Sheffield.

Of course that loosely links in to the Huddersfield to Manchester service, which would come under the new Transpennine franchise

I actually use the service a few times in the summer to go walking around Greenfield and have found the peak departures from Manchester to be busy but not unbearable. Compared to some of the services I have taken westbound from Manchester this one seems to come off quite well. I agree that platform extension to allow all the doors to open at all stations would be a benefit because while walking I often see double units in operation on the service.