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Northern Rail's documentation is rubbished on BBC Radio 4

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jon0844

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I would imagine that if you didn't declare something and nothing untoward happened during your visit, you'd be just fine.

However, if something did happen and details were subsequently checked then you could have problems. I don't mean being locked up or given the death penalty, but simply refused entry for a long time.
 
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bravot

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It wouldn't matter as spent convictions don't show up on the PNC. They have other ways to find out...

Incorrect. All arrests, convictions, non-convictions, etc going back to day dot. There is even reference to microfiche records.
 

DaveNewcastle

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It wouldn't matter as spent convictions don't show up on the PNC.
Incorrect. All arrests, convictions, non-convictions, etc going back to day dot. There is even reference to microfiche records.
I agree with bravot. I'm not aware of the deletion [policy on the PNC, but am in no doubt that a conviction becoming 'spent' does not somehow cause that record to become lost.

Perhaps najaB meant to say something else; such as that a specified entry on the PNC may not be disclosed on a defined range of searches by DBS, under some circumstances.
 

najaB

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Perhaps najaB meant to say something else; such as that a specified entry on the PNC may not be disclosed on a defined range of searches by DBS, under some circumstances.
Yes, 'does not show up normally in searches of' would be more accurate than 'is not contained'. Regardless, the point that I most clearly was not making is that our American cousins absolutely do not have access to information about arrests and convictions, as our Government is not in any way involved in information sharing with the intelligence and security services on the other side of the Atlantic.
 
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ian959

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Yes, 'does not show up normally in searches of' would be more accurate than 'is not contained'. Regardless, the point that I most clearly was not making is that our American cousins absolutely do not have access to information about arrests and convictions, as our Government is not in any way involved in information sharing with the intelligence and security services on the other side of the Atlantic.

You really believe that?
 

jumble

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Incorrect. All arrests, convictions, non-convictions, etc going back to day dot. There is even reference to microfiche records.
I know someone who got a caution for drunkenness in 1993 or so
He wanted to go to a country that cared on Holiday
It did not show up on a subject access request to the MET nor on an enhanced DBS
Therefore they understand and believe that this has been wiped from the PNC
However cautions issued today may be a totally different story

It is IMHO one of the disgraces of the law that people who were offered cautions were told if you fess up and then keep clean for 5 years it goes and the slate is wiped but then the rules were changed and those same chaps are now on an enhanced DBS ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On a public forum where they are not listening? Yes, of course I do.
I expect that the Home office are telling the truth here


https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...3/attach/2/20140130 Response Letter 30170.pdf

The US do not have direct access to the Police National Computer, however police information (including criminal records and fingerprint information) can be shared with partners (including those partners abroad) on a case by case
basis where permitted by the Human Rights Act 1998 and the Data Protection Act 1998.
For more information in the sharing of
 

bravot

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Yes, 'does not show up normally in searches of' would be more accurate than 'is not contained'.
Be under no illusion - it'll most certainly show up in a standard search on the PNC.

Therefore they understand and believe that this has been wiped from the PNC
However cautions issued today may be a totally different story
I doubt it, just because something isn't disclosed doesn't mean it's not there.
Depends very much on the force involved etc.
 

DaveNewcastle

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There does seem to be a lot of confusion on this subject. Perhaps I could try to put together a guide to the Criminal Records system for this forum, but in the meantime, I'll just make a few remarks:

Convictions that are 'spent' remain on file.
Enhanced DBS checks and Security Vetting checks scan more than just the PNC for records about a person.
The PNC is linked to other government databases.
National Security agencies and others have access to the data held on the PNC.
The 'deletion policy' applies to print-outs from the PNC (which may be produced for a range of reasons) e.g. a print out is deleted six years after discosure to a Court, or one year after the end of a custodial sentence. The computer record remains on file.
Prosecuting agencies other than the Police have authority to, and are instructed to, update the PNC.
Guidance is that personal information should be deleted when the subject reaches the age of 100.
 

jumble

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There does seem to be a lot of confusion on this subject. Perhaps I could try to put together a guide to the Criminal Records system for this forum, but in the meantime, I'll just make a few remarks:

Convictions that are 'spent' remain on file.
Enhanced DBS checks and Security Vetting checks scan more than just the PNC for records about a person.
The PNC is linked to other government databases.
National Security agencies and others have access to the data held on the PNC.
The 'deletion policy' applies to print-outs from the PNC (which may be produced for a range of reasons) e.g. a print out is deleted six years after discosure to a Court, or one year after the end of a custodial sentence. The computer record remains on file.
Prosecuting agencies other than the Police have authority to, and are instructed to, update the PNC.
Guidance is that personal information should be deleted when the subject reaches the age of 100.
Dave
I am sure that your as usual excellent guidance applies to the situation today but what is your take on what historic data might be on PNC if the Met have responded to a subject access saying that they hold no data?
It would be highly worrying if they were able to mislead people

I suspect but may be wrong that cautions used to be weeded altogether but is not now.
 

DaveNewcastle

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. . . what is your take on what historic data might be on PNC if the Met have responded to a subject access saying that they hold no data?
It would be highly worrying if they were able to mislead people
People may feel they have been misled without the information given to them being, in itself, misleading.

This page on the Metropolitan Police Service website explains that there are two available forms of requesting personal data for Londoners, one is information held on the PNC (a request which is forwarded to the Criminal Records Office); the other is local information held on the Met Police Service database (a request which the Met process themselves).

It follows that a person in London, unsure about their history, can make requests about the information available on these databases, but would need to make both of these requests before they could be confident that the information was exhaustive. It is unreasonable to claim that the Met is misleading people if the person only makes one of these requests about their own history.
If they wish to research any history they will have elsewhere in England and Wales, then they would make requests to the local Police forces responsible for those other areas.

One of the leading drivers of change in our Criminal Records procedures in England and Wales was the thorough review and subsequent reports by Sunita Mason: "A Common Sense Approach". Her findings were published in two reports which can be accesed here: "Criminal Records Review Regime", and have been broadly adopted in current practice.

To answer your specific question about historic information held by the Met Police Service, beyond what I've said above about local and national records, I can only say that one of Mrs Masons recurring themes was to promote greater consistency than has been seen in the past. I don't know how the Met's procedures were applied. Policy and practice in recording and deleting criminal data has not been consistent within forces nor across forces. To compound the challenge, it remains at variance across the UK's 4 nations (and the Republic of Ireland, mainland Europe and the Commonwealth).

Following the implementation of most of Sunita Mason's recommendations, we should expect to see greater consistency from now on.

Finally, I have to put this debate in its global context, where there is an ever-increasing demand for intelligence which concerns defence and national security, and where nations respond to that demand in different ways. The will, the technology, and the ability, to transfer personal information which concerns security will transcend any of the discussion above, and the intelligence managed by security forces will not be constrained by concerns for Data Protection, DBS searches or consistency across Police forces.
 
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Flamingo

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A general thought - if somebody discovers they have an incorrect entry on the PNC, eg they plead guilty a bylaw offence and later find it had been recorded as a RORA offence, have they any comeback or way of getting it altered?
 
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lejog

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Dave
I am sure that your as usual excellent guidance applies to the situation today but what is your take on what historic data might be on PNC if the Met have responded to a subject access saying that they hold no data?
It would be highly worrying if they were able to mislead people

I suspect but may be wrong that cautions used to be weeded altogether but is not now.

Having worked on police criminal records databases in the distant past, there were then Home Office Guidelines (long pdf) as to how long the police could keep data on convictions. And the systems themselves allowed records to be "weeded" from both PNC and local databases at the end of this period, although this could be overriden by the police themselves who could chose to keep records contrary to the guidelines.

This was changed by New Labour (around 2006, I think) and as has been said, records are now only deleted on your 100th birthday.
But convictions say from the 1990s and before may have been deleted before 2006.

Only convictions for "nationally notifiable" offences were recorded on the PNC at that time and I don't believe cautions were nationally notifiable. Cautions should have been weeded from local databases after 5 years according to the guidelines.

Of course the technology wasn't available then to hold the details of 16m people as the PNC does today.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A general thought - if somebody discovers they have an incorrect entry on the PNC, eg they plead guilty a bylaw offence and later find it had been recorded as a RORA offence, have they any comeback or way of getting it altered?

You apply to your friendly local Chief Constable to get the record deleted/corrected under the Exceptional Case Procedure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The PNC is linked to other government databases.

Is it? It is true that employees of other agencies may have access to data held on the PNC, but this is very different from databases being linked. Outside of other police bodies, defence and security organisations and the HMRC, other agencies only have limited access to basic name file data.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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The PNC is linked to other government databases.
Is it? It is true that employees of other agencies may have access to data held on the PNC, but this is very different from databases being linked. Outside of other police bodies, defence and security organisations and the HMRC, other agencies only have limited access to basic name file data.
Yes.

I didn't mean to imply 'linked' in the sense that users have immediate and transparent access to a subject's data from multiple sources in one consolidated record.
I did mean to imply that there is programatic synchronisation of the PNC with subjects' records from other databases viz. DVLA (motor vehicles), NFLMS (firearms) etc.
 

Jonny

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Besides, the USA's questions have changed, at least for the visa waiver, to include:

from https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/application.html?execution=e1s1
2) Have you ever been arrested or convicted for a crime that resulted in serious damage to property, or serious harm to another person or government authority?

This would be the relevant point for any fare-related convictions. If it was just the byelaws, or even RoRA, it is unlikely to be "serious harm". That would be fraud as a starting point.
 
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FenMan

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Northern Rail backed off from their "send us £80 and we'll forget about it" stance with this customer.

*I have no particular knowledge of the ticketing facilities at Lostock station.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/20...t-error-criminal-record-northern-rail-evasion

I am being threatened with a criminal record over a 70p shortfall in a train fare.

I am 67, and not at all dopey or infirm. Recently, I started to travel once a week into Manchester from Bolton station. Due to overcrowding I decided to try from Bolton Lostock instead.

When I arrived at the station the ticket office was closed for refurbishment. I planned to pay the conductor on the train but one did not appear – probably due to the overcrowding.

At my destination, Manchester Piccadilly, I queued up to buy my ticket and when my turn eventually came I was asked where I had got on the train – I said Bolton, not Bolton Lostock. I was issued with the ticket at a cost of £3.90. As I set off I felt a firm hand on my shoulder. An official explained that Northern Rail was clamping down on “fare dodgers”. He asked me three times why I had not bought a ticket at the station, and I told him three times that it was because the office was closed.

When he pointed out it was not possible, I realised my mistake and told him I’d got on at Bolton Lostock. He said there was a price difference of 70p, but he wouldn’t accept my payment and instead spent 30 minutes taking down my details.

I am now being pursued for fare evasion and have been told I owe 70p and an £80 fine. If I don’t pay I face £150 legal costs and a criminal record. I have sent them the 70p but told them I will not be paying their £80 fine as I am not guilty of their accusations. AD, Bolton


As we have often pointed out, train companies insist that passengers put up with their mistakes – their inability to hire enough drivers/too few working ticket offices/not enough rolling stock/trains not running on time etc – but if a passenger makes the tiniest error they get this kind of treatment.

You were understandably angry at being threatened with a criminal record over 70p. You have to wonder who at Northern Rail thought it was a good idea to pursue a first-time offender like this for such a small sum. Do these people all live such perfect lives?

We asked the company about your case. Originally, it stuck to the line that it would prosecute you if you failed to pay the £80 fine. “It is our duty to make it as easy as possible for our customers to purchase a ticket before they board our trains,” it told us. After we pointed out that it had not made it possible for you to buy a ticket, the company eventually relented.

“We are committed to a firm but fair approach in preventing and reducing fare evasion on our services and in order to do this we must have a consistent approach,” it says. Northern Rail has now accepted your 70p payment for the shortfall and closed the file.
 

Elecman

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There are no ticketing facilities at present as the old booking office has been removed and a new one being built. I installed the original one when the station first opened.
 

Merseysider

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Northern Rail backed off from their "send us £80 and we'll forget about it" stance with this customer.

*I have no particular knowledge of the ticketing facilities at Lostock station.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/20...t-error-criminal-record-northern-rail-evasion
Do you think Northern dropped the case for:
  • fear of negative PR (I doubt it)
  • they looked at it again and realised no Byelaw offence was committed (no purchasing facilities) and a RoRA wouldn't stick in court (no intent)
  • they genuinely thought an £80 penalty for a 70p slip up was harsh?

My money's on the second ;)
 

bb21

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Yes, negative PR. It is simply not worth pursuing a sum as insignificant as £80 for the potential grief they would get from Northern's perspective.

Asking for a short fare, however the complainant would like to dress it, has a good chance of establishing "intent", unless there are good reasons behind such an action. Whether the reason the complainant gave would have been good enough, no one will know.

I doubt Northern would have liked a test case, nor the complainant himself.
 

jumble

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People may feel they have been misled without the information given to them being, in itself, misleading.


It follows that a person in London, unsure about their history, can make requests about the information available on these databases, but would need to make both of these requests before they could be confident that the information was exhaustive. It is unreasonable to claim that the Met is misleading people if the person only makes one of these requests about their own history.

Dave
Many thanks for this
It is hard to disagree with these points.

It always amazes me when lawyers ( retired or not) come up with things to which the only answer is "why didn't I think of that ?"

The Caution was issued 1993 and so was certainly weeded I imagine
 

Merseysider

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Yes, negative PR. It is simply not worth pursuing a sum as insignificant as £80 for the potential grief they would get from Northern's perspective.

Asking for a short fare, however the complainant would like to dress it, has a good chance of establishing "intent", unless there are good reasons behind such an action. Whether the reason the complainant gave would have been good enough, no one will know.

I doubt Northern would have liked a test case, nor the complainant himself.
I can see where you're coming from and I don't disagree.

But if Northern dropped the case because the complainant kicked up a fuss, in order to avoid negative press coverage, what's to stop everybody 'caught' doing the same thing if they could bring up some mitigating circumstance?

My gut tells me that indeed, Northern did not want a test case. However, they know many people who could theoretically argue their way out simply won't bother, and the odds are on people paying up (making it 'go away') rather than risking a court battle.

A hard and fast, official penalty fare scheme with full facilities at every station wouldn't have these grey areas, but of course might not necessarily be to the benefit of passengers.
 

bb21

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But if Northern dropped the case because the complainant kicked up a fuss, in order to avoid negative press coverage, what's to stop everybody 'caught' doing the same thing if they could bring up some mitigating circumstance?

Many more people should imo. ;)

Remember the case of that "professor" who got chinged at Durham and was let off? You can technically be in the wrong but if you are pitted against the nasty train companies (rightly or wrongly, some with very good reasons when common sense is considered) in the press, you stand a good chance of them giving in.
 

DownSouth

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Many more people should imo. ;)

Remember the case of that "professor" who got chinged at Durham and was let off? You can technically be in the wrong but if you are pitted against the nasty train companies (rightly or wrongly, some with very good reasons when common sense is considered) in the press, you stand a good chance of them giving in.
The ability to call off an action when it looks like becoming a Pyrrhic Victory for the company sounds like a virtue of the rail operators having been re-privatised. Shareholders don't like Pyrrhic Victories.
 
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