Northern rolling stock changes post electrification (was 319 cascade to Northern)

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by robert7111a, 6 May 2014.

  1. nw-sparks

    nw-sparks Member

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    Bryn and Eccleston Park have been closed on Sundays since before my time. Is this a new improvement there, in which case I would expect some fanfare from Northern or Merseytravel, or is it a typo in the schedules?
     
  2. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    I wouldn't think that it's a typo, since Northern, RTT, (and Open Rail!) all agree about what is going to happen after 10 December. Bryn is actually outside the Merseytravel area, which might make a difference.
    One of my local stations, Patricroft, is getting a Sunday service from 10 December, but you wouldn't know unless you studied the tracking websites, although the station Friends group was informed several months ago.
    I didn't mention that the Lime Street to Wigan extras weren't stopping yesterday at Wavertree Technology Park, that's because they're not scheduled to do after 10 December. So the absence of that stop was the only difference between the LLS-Wigan and LLS-Preston stopping patterns.
     
  3. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    What is the stopping pattern on the Wigan services these days? Surely it would make more sense for trains to Wigan only to be stoppers (all stations) and those going beyond to Preston to be semifast?
     
  4. nw-sparks

    nw-sparks Member

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    RTT and Open Rail will normally agree because we receive the same feed from Network Rail. Depending on where you found it on Northern that may well be the same database as well.

    Having said that, I think you're correct - It is an improved service and not a mistake.
     
  5. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    That would be the more normal situation, I think what has happened here is it was presumably decided not to withdraw (for now, at least) any facility which exists now from any station. If the Monday to Saturday stopping pattern were to be adopted for the Prestons, there would no longer be a direct Sunday service to Preston from Wavertree Technology Park, Broad Green, Roby, Prescot, Thatto Heath, and Garswood. People would have to change at Wigan (as they do now, on Mondays to Saturdays), but because the Wigans and Prestons are going to be at diametrically opposite times of the hour there isn't going to be a particularly good connection at Wigan. On Mondays to Saturdays the stoppers are half-hourly, and the semi-fasts additional, so as long as people catch the appropriate stopper, there is a good connection.
     
  6. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    While this is true for people making trips like Garswood to Euxton Balshaw Lane (of which I am certain there are many...), there are another 3tph between Wigan NW and Preston!
     
  7. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    Of which none are operated by Northern. If passengers hold tickets which are valid by other operators services, and they're happy to use those services, then fair enough, but I think Northern's strategy should if at all possible presume that passengers are going to complete their journey with Northern.
    Those three additional tph are all long-distance services, so particularly at risk of being delayed, they're often overcrowded, and the VT services use stock with end doors, which doesn't lend itself well to standing passengers. My own choice of travel Wigan to Preston would be NT, as strange as it may seem.
     
  8. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    Can I ask why this is a sensible assumption?

    While I agree with you that delays and overcrowding are significant problems on VT / TP services in the area, why would extra Northern services be considered a solution to that? Should Northern operate Penrith to Carlisle shuttles, for example?
     
  9. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    IIRC the issue was why the existing Sunday Liverpool to Preston trains (strictly, the truncated Liverpool to Blackpools) were going to continue to serve Wavertree Technology Park, Broad Green, Roby, Prescot, Thatto Heath, and Garswood, rather than some or all of those calls being dropped and instead picked up by the new Liverpool to Wigan shorts.
    I'm not aware that anyone's suggested that Northern should run more trains than they currently do, and as for running Penrith to Carlisle shuttles, I can't imagine why Northern would want to do that, bearing in mind that it doesn't presently serve Penrith at all.
     
  10. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    Your justification for that was that passengers travelling from Preston to Wavertree Technology Park, Broad Green, Roby, Prescot, Thatto Heath, and Garswood (presumably you contend that there are a lot of these? Otherwise I'm not sure how it's relevant at all) would have very long connection times at Wigan North Western, I was merely pointing out that this is in fact not the case at all.

    While there may be good reasons for doing it this way (probable: it's only temporary, so nobody has thought about it or this way required fewer extra units and crews somehow), I don't think people travelling from Preston were part of the reason why.
     
  11. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    I was considering the situation in the opposite direction actually (changing at Wigan NW Liverpool-bound isn't quite as easy) but I did make the point that not everyone is in a position to travel by TPE/VT. If their ticket is NT only, then that's what it is.

    On the contrary, I think they have indeed thought about it, and that's why things are going to be as they are going to be, at least for the time being. As Phil W (nw-sparks) has commented, there hasn't been any sort of fanfare about the recent change, therefore it's good that no-one suddenly has the rug pulled from underneath them. The Liverpool to Preston journeys are going to continue running at the same times that they did when they ran through to Blackpool, and stopping at the same stations, too. The additional journeys are exactly that, additional in every respect. If the enhanced service inspires greater patronage (and there's every likelihood that it will) then it may be thought appropriate in due course to modify the stopping patterns in order to balance out loadings. May 2018 would be a good time to do that (when there are going to be major changes anyway), and with plenty of notice, rather than partway through a timetable, and with no notice at all.

    There's no easy way that Liverpool to Wigan/Preston, on the new Sunday frequencies, could be operated with fewer than five EMU sets, to try doing it with fewer would be very very tight indeed.

    See above.
     
    Last edited: 19 Nov 2017 at 00:42
  12. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    Can anyone say where the stock comes from to work the 0847Su Wigan North Western to Liverpool Lime Street? I can't find an appropriate ECS working.
    I presume it's now a 319 duty, but things don't appear to have been any different when it was a diesel (i.e. up to a fortnight ago).
     
  13. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    With the exception of anyone using free tickets or passes, this will be almost nobody whatsoever on this route.
     
  14. Loop & Link

    Loop & Link Member

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    Stabled overnight at Wigan North Western - booked 150+142, on arrival at Lime Street does the 23:15 to Manchester Airport.
     
  15. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    I have to admit that I had misread RTT, I thought it remained on Prestons for the rest of the day, which it clearly does not.
    According to RTT on arrival at Lime Street it goes into platform 4, followed not very many minutes later by the 0845 ex-Oxford Road, due Lime Street 0951. This is in turn replaced on CLC stoppers by the stock off 2F03 (0844 ex-Airport or 0859 ex-Piccadilly, depending on the season).
    It would appear that it is the 2215 Airport (rather than 2315) which is formed from stock which has been lurking in platform 4 for much of the day, but if 2C23 (0847 ex-WGN) is formed of a pacer/sprinter combination, and the 0951 arrival ex-CLC is (at least) a single pacer/sprinter, then there must be at least three DMU units stabled in platform 4. I'm sure that the 2215 Airport isn't a triple, so some info must be missing, I think.
    The 2315 Airport apparently forms from the stock off the 2145 ex-Oxford Road, due Lime Street 2248.
    Which rather leaves one burning question unanswered. If the pacer/sprinter combination stables in platform 2 at WGN (which it does), how come the 0847Su departure for Lime Street apparently departs platform 6? There's no mention on RTT of a shunt move (they aren't always shown, I know) but why would there need to be a shunt move anyway? There doesn't appear to be a problem running service trains from platforms 2/3 (the 0644 to Lime Street departs 3 on Saturdays) and there's access from platforms 2/3 to the St Helens line (5F51, 0534NSSu ECS WGN to SNH, also departs 3).
    Talking of 5F51, I see that from 11 December it becomes 0535, departing platform 4. It's timed for a 319, as is 2F51 (0558 SNH to Lime Street) and 2N71 (0756 Lime Street to Preston), which is what I reckon it is going to be doing after that.
    Rather suspiciously, the Sprinter (usually a 156, I believe) which has stabled the previous night in platform 3, and which would under the present regime do 5F51, doesn't appear to go anywhere. What is at present its next duty, the 0745 Lime Street to Oxford Road, is going to be covered by the unit off the 0605 from Stockport.
     
  16. Loop & Link

    Loop & Link Member

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    @Bovverboy - I can promise you 100% that the 08:47 Wigan-Lime Street are formed of units stabled overnight at Wigan and are booked to form 23:15 Lime Street-Manchester Airport, whether this happens on the day (could be swaps in place) but that it was is booked to happen. Sometimes RTT isn’t 100% accurate with platforms. There is no booked shunt at Wigan and there’s no time to shunt either, it’s been a Blackpool Driver since the other Sunday.

    I would treat RTT with caution with such platform info. While it’s a brilliant resource, it’s not 100% accurate.

    The 05:58 St Helens Central-Lime Street will still be booked a DMU from December (off 5F51) and will still do the 07:45 to Oxford Road. 07:56 will be formed off the Stockport like now.

    Hope this answers your questions.
     
    Last edited: 20 Nov 2017 at 22:00
  17. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Member

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    Hmm. I'm having to guess what the significance is for the duty being scheduled for a Blackpool driver. Perhaps he is scheduled to be taxied from Blackpool, to arrive Wigan at xxxx hrs, leaving just sufficient time to do the required checks, but not enough to perform a shunt move.
    Goodness knows why a driver needs to be brought from Blackpool.

    Not only does RTT say the 0847 departs platform 6, but so does Phil W's 'Open Rail' site (and has done for as long as the record is available, which is over twelve months), and so does the journey planner. So if the data feed says that the 0847 departs platform 6 (which it must be doing), but the train actually departs platform 2, isn't that going to make a mess of such things as departure displays, and automated announcements?

    if you say that's how things are going to be, I suppose that's what they will be, but it seems odd that online sources say otherwise.
     
    Last edited: 22 Nov 2017 at 07:16

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