Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[childwallblues]

Perhaps he should take lessons from Liverpool drivers who take very little time between Euxton and Wigan to reach the magic three figures.

 

[50032]

Perhaps he should take lessons from Liverpool drivers who take very little time between Euxton and Wigan to reach the magic three figures.

The downhill gradient has something to do with that...

 

[pemma]

Perhaps he should take lessons from Liverpool drivers who take very little time between Euxton and Wigan to reach the magic three figures.

Response from another driver

I'd expect it should hit 90 by Sandbach running on greens even if it takes a little longer than a 323 - but my own experience observing a colleague on Chat Moss has shown its the last 10-15mph that the unit really struggles with.

We've been told that putting them straight into notch 4/running them up too quickly can damage the motors (323s meanwhile will happily go straight to notch 4 from a standing start); so it's a notch one start with notch two as soon as the unit starts moving. Can put it into notch 3 around 10mph but it won't start putting power down until 15-20mph which is when it really starts accelerating.

So perhaps the lesson learnt from Liverpool drivers is if you try to get them up to speed too quickly it damages the motors and causes them to be unreliable trains?

 

[Altfish]

Has the permanent speed restriction south of Sandbach been lifted

 

[driver_m]

Has the permanent speed restriction south of Sandbach been lifted

Do you mean the 60mph? If so, that went years ago.

 

[Jamesrob637]

319s started on the Alderley Edge services today.

(Picture is of 319384 waiting to work the 10:38 to Alderley Edge)

On it right now! Airier and brighter than a 323 but not as hot off the line and doesn't make the whirring sound 323s do; just sounds like it has one long gear from 0-90!

 

[LOL The Irony]

Interesting observation on another forum a driver claimed while taking a 319 ECS from Crewe to Manchester it took until Chelford (14 miles north of Crewe) to reach the maximum 100mph speed!

That lost time is not good. Hopefully the 331's are on par with the 323's.

 

[Geeves]

On the 331s both the three car an the four car sets, the driving cars will be motored on all wheel sets. The middle car(s) are un-motored and carry the transformer. On the four car sets there is one trailer car with nothing under it so it wouldn't be hard to make the three cars to four. Still don't think they will be as fast as the 323s .

 

[samuelmorris]

On the 331s both the three car an the four car sets, the driving cars will be motored on all wheel sets. The middle car(s) are un-motored and carry the transformer. On the four car sets there is one trailer car with nothing under it so it wouldn't be hard to make the three cars to four. Still don't think they will be as fast as the 323s .

I don't see why not, 50% axles powered is common for most new EMUs and on AC, both 700s and 345s have excellent acceleration with a similar proportion of powered axles...

 

[childwallblues]

On it right now! Airier and brighter than a 323 but not as hot off the line and doesn't make the whirring sound 323s do; just sounds like it has one long gear from 0-90!

The 319 interiors have been refurbished whilst the the 323 have not and are not likely to be with Northern.

 

[L+Y]

Has the 323 made it to Allerton yet?

 

[D365]

I don't see why not, 50% axles powered is common for most new EMUs and on AC, both 700s and 345s have excellent acceleration with a similar proportion of powered axles...

Agreed and IGBT-era tech has been steadily improving over the 90s GTO AC drive of the Networkers and 323.

 

[childwallblues]

Has the 323 made it to Allerton yet?

Not reported as yet as arriving. My friend who is a driver at Lime Street says it is something to do with not being allowed over Chat Moss at the moment.

 

[43096]

Agreed and IGBT-era tech has been steadily improving over the 90s GTO AC drive of the Networkers and 323.

323s have been re-fitted with IGBTs by Alstom, though.

http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transp... - Case study - English.pdf?epslanguage=en-GB

 

[samuelmorris]

When did that happen? I don't see 323s often but I haven't seen footage of any that suggests a traction electronics change - I'm sure given the distinctive noise the original system on the 323s produced that it would make a noticeable difference...

 

[Overspeed110]

When did that happen? I don't see 323s often but I haven't seen footage of any that suggests a traction electronics change - I'm sure given the distinctive noise the original system on the 323s produced that it would make a noticeable difference...

They were done in the last 18 months or so and there is no difference whatsoever in the noise or performance of the unit according to a DI mate who drives them

 

[samuelmorris]

Interesting, I wonder how that works then...

 

[507021]

The 319 interiors have been refurbished whilst the the 323 have not and are not likely to be with Northern.

The 319 interiors aren't fully refurbished, the updated seating, WiFi and LED lighting haven't been fitted yet.

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting, I wonder how that works then...

I think they deliberately used devices that mimic the behaviour of the old ones, and didn't change the control software, so as to minimise the safety approval issues.

 

[59CosG95]

Interesting, I wonder how that works then...

IIRC, I think it was only the traction motor inverters that remained as GTO - every other GTO-operated piece of equipment became IGBT-operated. I could be wrong though - @edwin_m's thoughts are equally likely.

 

[43096]

IIRC, I think it was only the traction motor inverters that remained as GTO - every other GTO-operated piece of equipment became IGBT-operated. I could be wrong though - @edwin_m's thoughts are equally likely.

Nope. Traction inverters are changed to IGBT type. Posted on another forum by someone who knows (as they work for Alstom).

 

[59CosG95]

Nope. Traction inverters are changed to IGBT type. Posted on another forum by someone who knows (as they work for Alstom).

Ahh fair enough.

 

[59CosG95]

150 news: some more are due to move today. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K12832/2018/02/17/advanced

 

[childwallblues]

150 news: some more are due to move today. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K12832/2018/02/17/advanced

150120 AND 150129 PLUS ONE MORE.

 

[childwallblues]

150120 AND 150129 PLUS ONE MORE.

Correction - reported as 150120 + 150128 + 150108.

 

[djpontrack]

Correction - reported as 150120 + 150128 + 150108.

Excellent, 150108 is required for haulage so it should be a bit easier to get now.

 

[craigybagel]

Has the permanent speed restriction south of Sandbach been lifted

Once clear of Crewe North Junction, it's 85 on the down and 90 on the up to just before Sandbach. 110 north of there.

Interesting observation on another forum a driver claimed while taking a 319 ECS from Crewe to Manchester it took until Chelford (14 miles north of Crewe) to reach the maximum 100mph speed!

Given that even a diesel powered 175 week normally hit 100 well before that - and on Northern strike days is still able to hit the ton between Holmes Chapel and Alderley Edge from a standing start, I very much doubt that.

That said, from a trip in the rear cab of a 323 one time I noted it still managed to hit 90 from a standing start between Sandbach and Crewe, the 319s are going to have a lot to live up to performance wise.

In any case, the diagram that takes the 319s to Alderley Edge does also see them up all the way to Crewe in the evening, so if somebody wants to bring along a GPS.....

 

[Rail Blues]

The 319 interiors have been refurbished whilst the the 323 have not and are not likely to be with Northern.

I'd hardly call it a refurbishment,more like a refresh, like everything at Northern it is done to a price and while not badly executed, doesn't disguise the.fact you are travelling on rolling stock that is over 30 years old and has had a hard life behind it.

 

[Geeves]

Class 323 (323231) became the first of the class to reach Allerton depot tonight. Its there for crew training for the future Liverpool - Airport - Crewe jobs.

156 training continues this week, with a unit out-stationed at Holbeck for Leeds and York train crew to learn and sign (re sign).

 

[IanXC]

I have moved discussion of 323 rumours to a separate thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/rumours-of-all-323s-to-now-go-to-northern.161365/