Northern timetable changes May 2019

[Mathew S]

Its going down the chat moss line via Earlestown I think.

The promised Calder Valley- Liverpool service is supposed to be via Warrington Central so that could provide the Vic- Picc- Ox Rd extra Northern service as a combination of existing trains (if that is what they were planning)

Calder Valley - Chester has always been supposed to run via Earlestown & Warrington BQ. It's part of Northern Connect and this is made clear on Northern's own website and by the DfT when the franchise was announced.
The Northern Connect page on the Northern website shows a map with details of all the services at: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/northern-connect

 

[cle]

Not sure there ever was a Calder - Liverpool planned, Liverpool is getting the fast TPE services instead.

If Chester to Leeds/York is a desired flow, I'd imagine people may still change at Victoria as via Calder is a slog. Then again, it brings in some bigger places like Halifax, Rochdale and Bradford. I don't think it should stop elsewhere between Manchester and Leeds, journeys are too slow.

 

[notlob.divad]

Not sure there ever was a Calder - Liverpool planned, Liverpool is getting the fast TPE services instead.

If Chester to Leeds/York is a desired flow, I'd imagine people may still change at Victoria as via Calder is a slog. Then again, it brings in some bigger places like Halifax, Rochdale and Bradford. I don't think it should stop elsewhere between Manchester and Leeds, journeys are too slow.

Yes there was. A Liverpool to Bradford service is on the Northern Connect website and was included in the TSRs of the final Franchise Bid. Whether it happens or not is another matter, but it was always supposed to.

 

[Glenn1969]

There was. It was supposed to be a Northern Connect service and replace the TPE service via Warrington Central. But we will see if they actually do it

 

[Greybeard33]

Not sure there ever was a Calder - Liverpool planned, Liverpool is getting the fast TPE services instead.

It is listed on Northern's Northern Connect webpage, https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/northern-connect.

Leeds-Bradford-Halifax-Rochdale-Manchester-Liverpool

The purple line on the map shows it running on the Chat Moss line. It is the Liverpool to Manchester Airport service that has replaced the TPE service via Warrington Central (blue line on the map).

However, I do not believe the franchise TSRs specify any through services between the Calder Valley and Liverpool. Nor do they require any through Northern services between Liverpool and Manchester, other than those to the Airport via the Chat Moss and CLC lines.

 

[Llama]

Calder Valley to Liverpool via CLC wasnt on the cards. It would be unworkable. The last thing the Castlefield corridor needs is yet more delay imported, traction restrictions on the Calder Valley (unless you want to train all Liverpool crew and ~60 Piccadilly crew on 158s and 155s, for drivers that's a week each) and a reversing service that stitches up the bay at Oxford Road.

 

[Geeves]

There was. It was supposed to be a Northern Connect service and replace the TPE service via Warrington Central. But we will see if they actually do it

Liverpool to the Airport via the CLC (Warrington Central) should be one of the first if not THE first line to see 195s.

 

[jizzer]

It was initially was liverpool to man airport but Barrow to man airport is going to be the first 195 service

 

[scrapy]

It was initially was liverpool to man airport but Barrow to man airport is going to be the first 195 service

Yes the Liverpool to Manchester Airport route shouldn't be far behind when training starts although there is a shortage of managers at Lime St. It's far easier to train a small depot like Barrow (and even then it's only half as it's only the ex TPE staff).

 

[Wtloild]

It was initially was liverpool to man airport but Barrow to man airport is going to be the first 195 service

Is that going to be via Wigan or via Chorley?
The former seems an inefficient route now the latter is seemingly finished.

 

[Glenn1969]

As well as the Calder Valley the Northern Franchise agreement also included significant improvements on all days for North East locals, Yorkshire Coast, Hull and Tyne Valley services. But how many of these are actually still going ahead?

 

[Greybeard33]

Is that going to be via Wigan or via Chorley?
The former seems an inefficient route now the latter is seemingly finished.

Until May Barrow - Airport services will continue to run via Chorley. From May the new hourly Lancaster - Airport service (extended in some hours to either Barrow or Windermere) will run via Wigan and Golborne. The Chorley line will then be used by the electric services (Blackpool - Airport, Blackpool - Hazel Grove and Preston - Victoria).

The franchise TSRs require Northern to retain a fast service between Wigan and Manchester.

 

[Mathew S]

Is that going to be via Wigan or via Chorley?
The former seems an inefficient route now the latter is seemingly finished.

Until May Barrow - Airport services will continue to run via Chorley. From May the new hourly Lancaster - Airport service (extended in some hours to either Barrow or Windermere) will run via Wigan and Golborne. The Chorley line will then be used by the electric services (Blackpool - Airport, Blackpool - Hazel Grove and Preston - Victoria).

The franchise TSRs require Northern to retain a fast service between Wigan and Manchester.

Indeed, it's a Wigan - Manchester thing. There's a need for a fast service for commuters, hospital appointments, etc. Ideally I'd like to see them keep the Barrows running via Chorley/Bolton and use the bays at Wigan NW to run a Wigan - Manchester shuttle; but I can't see that somehow.

 

[Greybeard33]

Indeed, it's a Wigan - Manchester thing. There's a need for a fast service for commuters, hospital appointments, etc. Ideally I'd like to see them keep the Barrows running via Chorley/Bolton and use the bays at Wigan NW to run a Wigan - Manchester shuttle; but I can't see that somehow.

There will be 8tph between Bolton and Salford Crescent from May, including the TPE Scotland service. I doubt there would be a path for the Cumbria service to go that way too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Until May Barrow - Airport services will continue to run via Chorley. From May the new hourly Lancaster - Airport service (extended in some hours to either Barrow or Windermere) will run via Wigan and Golborne. The Chorley line will then be used by the electric services (Blackpool - Airport, Blackpool - Hazel Grove and Preston - Victoria).

The franchise TSRs require Northern to retain a fast service between Wigan and Manchester.

That's a bit "back to the future" - in the 1990s the Windermeres all ran via Wigan, albeit via Westhoughton rather than Golborne; Golborne was near enough Parliamentary.

 

[Mollman]

As well as the Calder Valley the Northern Franchise agreement also included significant improvements on all days for North East locals, Yorkshire Coast, Hull and Tyne Valley services. But how many of these are actually still going ahead?

I think the Hull - Leeds Northern services have been dropped.

 

[geoffk]

Calder Valley to Liverpool via CLC wasnt on the cards. It would be unworkable. The last thing the Castlefield corridor needs is yet more delay imported, traction restrictions on the Calder Valley (unless you want to train all Liverpool crew and ~60 Piccadilly crew on 158s and 155s, for drivers that's a week each) and a reversing service that stitches up the bay at Oxford Road.

Unworkable because you cannot get to the CLC line from Victoria without reversal at Oxford Road. Those of us who live on the Calder Valley route, where several local stations justify a better service, are not too happy about the prospect of more semi-fast services. West Yorkshire/WYCA call the shots and there's little support from TfGM for trains to call anywhere except Rochdale.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think the Hull - Leeds Northern services have been dropped.

A lot of the plans from Northerns Franchise seem to have been dropped.

 

[Llama]

Unworkable because you cannot get to the CLC line from Victoria without reversal at Oxford Road. Those of us who live on the Calder Valley route, where several local stations justify a better service, are not too happy about the prospect of more semi-fast services. West Yorkshire/WYCA call the shots and there's little support from TfGM for trains to call anywhere except Rochdale.

Yes, absolutely. Oxford Rd bay platform (or P1) isn't ideal for any more reversing trains.

I seem to remember Walsden, Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge particularly being shafted several times since 2008.

 

[thealexweb]

There will be 8tph between Bolton and Salford Crescent from May, including the TPE Scotland service. I doubt there would be a path for the Cumbria service to go that way too.

This is a question that comes up regularly but there will be some spare capacity every through Bolton. Bolton used to have up to 9tph back in 2013 and that was before substantial infrastructure improvements.

 

[Paceman]

I think the Hull - Leeds Northern services have been dropped.

No they haven’t. The service planned is Halifax to Hull.

 

[dazzler]

No they haven’t. The service planned is Halifax to Hull.

via Hell?

 

[Killingworth]

Whatever is being planned there's an ominous lack of details emerging for Northern's May timetables. As far as I can see TPE, EMT, XC and freight paths have all been in place down the Hope Valley and into Sheffield for at least a month. With gaps of 2 hours or more between several Northern services local users aren't too happy, but at least we do have trains on Saturdays once again.

Presumably the after effects of the strike, delayed stock cascades and refurbishments, postponed crew training and potential issues with new trains will be contributing. Any bets on when the white smoke will emerge?

 

[Mathew S]

Whatever is being planned there's an ominous lack of details emerging for Northern's May timetables. As far as I can see TPE, EMT, XC and freight paths have all been in place down the Hope Valley and into Sheffield for at least a month. With gaps of 2 hours or more between several Northern services local users aren't too happy, but at least we do have trains on Saturdays once again.

Presumably the after effects of the strike, delayed stock cascades and refurbishments, postponed crew training and potential issues with new trains will be contributing. Any bets on when the white smoke will emerge?

@The Planner - who, let's be honest, is probably better informed than most of the rest of us about these things - opined earlier that it would be "a couple of weeks" after T-12. So, sometime in March, basically.

The post concerned is here: May 2019 timetable changes

(Edit, apologies, got my planners mixed up!)

 

[js1000]

Whatever is being planned there's an ominous lack of details emerging for Northern's May timetables. As far as I can see TPE, EMT, XC and freight paths have all been in place down the Hope Valley and into Sheffield for at least a month. With gaps of 2 hours or more between several Northern services local users aren't too happy, but at least we do have trains on Saturdays once again.

Presumably the after effects of the strike, delayed stock cascades and refurbishments, postponed crew training and potential issues with new trains will be contributing. Any bets on when the white smoke will emerge?

I do have concerns Northern is trying to become this inter-city service at the detriment of commuter stations and passengers in an effort to improve profitability of the franchise. The imposition of 'skip stop' services to maximise capacity is now widespread with irregular calling patterns on many Northern lines. tbtc hit the nail on the head very well a couple of years back on the pitfalls of a Northern Connect service.

Northern should be focusing on bread and butter commuter revenue that feeds into long-distance connections from major rail hubs - rather than competing with TransPennine Express as an inter-city franchise. There is some logic to some longer distance Northern Connect services - less need for connections, improves capacity by using less units on separate routes etc.

I can only speak from the line I live on that the timetable changes in May 2018 were mostly all detrimental. Half hour interval at **:00 and **:30 to irregular intervals at **:00 and **:13, extension of service to Liverpool which has reduced PPM punctuality to <50% from 90%, removal of late 90s EMU and introduction of dirty 1980s DMUs for new service to Liverpool etc.

That's not the service passengers want. Northern have to be careful they don't kill the golden goose in the process. The fact that the franchise has not increased passenger numbers since commencing in 2016 is little surprise and a serious cause for concern.

 

[Eccles1983]

I do have concerns Northern is trying to become this inter-city service at the detriment of commuter stations and passengers in an effort to improve profitability of the franchise. The imposition of 'skip stop' services to maximise capacity is now widespread with irregular calling patterns on many Northern lines. tbtc hit the nail on the head very well a couple of years back on the pitfalls of a Northern Connect service.

Northern should be focusing on bread and butter commuter revenue that feeds into long-distance connections from major rail hubs - rather than competing with TransPennine Express as an inter-city franchise. There is some logic to some longer distance Northern Connect services - less need for connections, improves capacity by using less units on separate routes etc.

I can only speak from the line I live on that the timetable changes in May 2018 were mostly all detrimental. Half hour interval at **:00 and **:30 to irregular intervals at **:00 and **:13, extension of service to Liverpool which has reduced PPM punctuality to <50% from 90%, removal of late 90s EMU and introduction of dirty 1980s DMUs for new service to Liverpool etc.

That's not the service passengers want. Northern have to be careful they don't kill the golden goose in the process. The fact that the franchise has not increased passenger numbers since commencing in 2016 is little surprise and a serious cause for concern.

And yet people moan about the subsidy Northern gets.

The longer faster services make money. All shacks don't.

TPE have took the remaining money making lines, with the transpennine and chat moss routes.

Northern is entitled to go after the money trains.

 

[30907]

I do have concerns Northern is trying to become this inter-city service at the detriment of commuter stations and passengers in an effort to improve profitability of the franchise. The imposition of 'skip stop' services to maximise capacity is now widespread with irregular calling patterns on many Northern lines.

Which "many" routes are these?
I can think of:
Hope Valley (AIUI to allow freight paths)
Man Airport (too many trains?)
Oxford Rd - Warrington (long standing pattern)
Leeds - York (plan B after May disaster!)

Of those, which are Northern trying to become an intercity service?
The nearest to that I can think of is the recast of Calder Valley services which affects Mytholmroyd/Sowerby Br - Halifax/Bradford.

 

[darloscott]

The new Connect network is designed to introduce higher quality interurban services to the Northern franchise, as these are the services that can really make money and reduce the subsidy required across the franchise. It will also give it a stronger commercial footing when competing for future investment in new units

 

[Greybeard33]

This is a question that comes up regularly but there will be some spare capacity every through Bolton. Bolton used to have up to 9tph back in 2013 and that was before substantial infrastructure improvements.

Although the infrastructure improvements have increased the linespeed, so the Bolton - Manchester stopper now needs a bigger slot to avoid delaying the following fast service.

However, I was replying to a post that suggested routing the Cumbria - Airport service via Bolton and adding a Wigan NW to Manchester via Golborne service. The issue with that would be to find suitable paths through Ordsall Lane Junction and the Windsor Bridge Junctions, rather than the capacity through Bolton.

 

[Mathew S]

Although the infrastructure improvements have increased the linespeed, so the Bolton - Manchester stopper now needs a bigger slot to avoid delaying the following fast service.

However, I was replying to a post that suggested routing the Cumbria - Airport service via Bolton and adding a Wigan NW to Manchester via Golborne service. The issue with that would be to find suitable paths through Ordsall Lane Junction and the Windsor Bridge Junctions, rather than the capacity through Bolton.

The original post you were replying to was mine. As I said, I wasn't being serious and don't expect a Wigan-Manc via Golborne shuttle to ever happen (for all sorts of reasons, paths into Manchester being one of them).