Northern timetable changes May 2019

[Flyingsprinter]

No they haven’t. The service planned is Halifax to Hull.

Wouldn’t it make more sense to extend one of the Calder Valley services to hull instead of terminating a service at Halifax? To terminate a service at Halifax would mean a small turn around time to make it work and if any train is delayed it would cause a lot of disruption, unless they are building that new platform?

 

[Philip]

Are the Clitheroe services down for 158s or 195s come May?

 

[Wtloild]

I'd guess 150s or 156s.
Can't see 158s or 195s being used.

 

[clagmonster]

Although the infrastructure improvements have increased the linespeed, so the Bolton - Manchester stopper now needs a bigger slot to avoid delaying the following fast service.

Would it not make sense to put a fast accelerating EMU on the stoppers? I suspect there isn't a massive market from Moses Gate, Farnworth or Kearsley to Wigan, so providing them with a Preston service instead would give them faster journeys and reduce the headway required behind a stopper.

Wouldn’t it make more sense to extend one of the Calder Valley services to hull instead of terminating a service at Halifax? To terminate a service at Halifax would mean a small turn around time to make it work and if any train is delayed it would cause a lot of disruption, unless they are building that new platform?

Presumably they will go into the turnback siding, so platform occupation will not be that high whilst allowing a decent turnround time. Of course, there will still be a couple of minutes dwell on terminating trains whilst they tip out the unit.

 

[Wtloild]

Would it not make sense to put a fast accelerating EMU on the stoppers? I suspect there isn't a massive market from Moses Gate, Farnworth or Kearsley to Wigan, so providing them with a Preston service instead would give them faster journeys and reduce the headway required behind a stopper.

At least two of those have got very short platforms, so I think it'd have to be a short stopper.

 

[Llama]

Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate could all accommodate a 319, but a 319 would probably negate the time saved by running faster between Salford Crescent and Kearsley with the extra time taken accelerating from 0-40ish between the stations.

The sensible answer would be to skip-stop, this was the case up until 2008 when, generally, of the two trains to Wigan Wallgate via Bolton per hour from Manchester Victoria, one stopped at Moses Gate and one stopped at Kearsley & Farnworth.

 

[Eccles1983]

Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate could all accommodate a 319, but a 319 would probably negate the time saved by running faster between Salford Crescent and Kearsley with the extra time taken accelerating from 0-40ish between the stations.

The sensible answer would be to skip-stop, this was the case up until 2008 when, generally, of the two trains to Wigan Wallgate via Bolton per hour from Manchester Victoria, one stopped at Moses Gate and one stopped at Kearsley & Farnworth.

No thanks.

Fail to calls would go through the roof again.

I like the "stop at one, stop at all" thing they have got going on.

Trying to pick a braking point for Farnworth only on a 319 would be entertaining.......

 

[Greybeard33]

Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate could all accommodate a 319, but a 319 would probably negate the time saved by running faster between Salford Crescent and Kearsley with the extra time taken accelerating from 0-40ish between the stations.

The sensible answer would be to skip-stop, this was the case up until 2008 when, generally, of the two trains to Wigan Wallgate via Bolton per hour from Manchester Victoria, one stopped at Moses Gate and one stopped at Kearsley & Farnworth.

Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate are served by the Stalybridge to Wigan NW service, which would have been operated by 319s under ARN's original rolling stock plan. Presumably 769s will take over from the DMUs if/when they eventually enter service, and make use of the wires between Victoria and Bolton.

 

[Llama]

769s would be even worse for pathing!

 

[Philip]

I'd guess 150s or 156s.
Can't see 158s or 195s being used.

I thought they had to use trains with a higher top speed because the Bolton-Victoria-Rochdale section requires 90/100mph running, to allow the timetable to work?

 

[Geeves]

The Clitheroe to Rochdale calls at all stops between Vic and Rochdale so a 100mph set isnt really required though it would be nice!

As for the Bolton section you will be lucky in any unit to actually reach 100mph in the down direction, even if you do you are likely to be catching something up in front of you that can only do 75, that goes for the up direction too.

 

[Kite159]

Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate are served by the Stalybridge to Wigan NW service, which would have been operated by 319s under ARN's original rolling stock plan. Presumably 769s will take over from the DMUs if/when they eventually enter service, and make use of the wires between Victoria and Bolton.

Crayonist time, couldn't the stops at Farnworth & the like be transferred to the Manchester Victoria - Preston stopper, maybe getting looped at Bolton?

Then those services towards Wigan NW can run fast between Salford & Bolton

 

[Philip]

The Clitheroe to Rochdale calls at all stops between Vic and Rochdale so a 100mph set isnt really required though it would be nice!

As for the Bolton section you will be lucky in any unit to actually reach 100mph in the down direction, even if you do you are likely to be catching something up in front of you that can only do 75, that goes for the up direction too.

But it'll soon be the case that the only units running on the Bolton line limited to 75mph will be the Clitheroe and Blackburn DMUs, so there's a pretty strong case there for putting 195s on them, so that all running is at 100mph (aside from the stopping train) and so hopefully few instances of one train catching another up.

 

[Llama]

Pathing is unlikely to be that tight. There are bigger constraints than maximum permissible speed of rolling stock, the approach control signalling at Bolton East Jn in the down direction for movements to platform 1 probably has a bigger impact on sectional running times.

 

[Ianno87]

Crayonist time, couldn't the stops at Farnworth & the like be transferred to the Manchester Victoria - Preston stopper, maybe getting looped at Bolton?

Then those services towards Wigan NW can run fast between Salford & Bolton

Looping at Bolton will make little if any difference, as that's no different just to carrying on a tiny bit further then diving out of the way at Lostock Jn.

Plus a Preston stopper would need to sit at Bolton for 8-9 minutes to be looped, poor for journey times and stock use.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But it'll soon be the case that the only units running on the Bolton line limited to 75mph will be the Clitheroe and Blackburn DMUs, so there's a pretty strong case there for putting 195s on them, so that all running is at 100mph (aside from the stopping train) and so hopefully few instances of one train catching another up.

The 100 doesn't start till quite far out (Kearsley?).
So not really a 100mph line throughout.

 

[Philip]

The 100 doesn't start till quite far out (Kearsley?).
So not really a 100mph line throughout.

What is it before Kearsley? Any reason for not being 100 throughout?

 

[Kite159]

Looping at Bolton will make little if any difference, as that's no different just to carrying on a tiny bit further then diving out of the way at Lostock Jn.

Plus a Preston stopper would need to sit at Bolton for 8-9 minutes to be looped, poor for journey times and stock use.

The idea was that those stops would be transferred to an EMU towards Preston, with the DMU towards Wigan being able to go non-stop.

 

[Llama]

What is it before Kearsley? Any reason for not being 100 throughout?

The line speed is 95 from Agecroft North Jn to about half way between Clifton station and the M60 motorway bridge, then 100mph to the site of the former Moses Gate Jn. There is no 100mph in the up direction (Bolton to Salford), maximum is 95 between Moses Gate and a distance before Agecroft North Jn.
Signalling and infrastructure will be the reasons the permissible speeds aren't higher.

 

[Greybeard33]

The idea was that those stops would be transferred to an EMU towards Preston, with the DMU towards Wigan being able to go non-stop.

The Victoria - Preston EMU will be the only service to Blackrod and Adlington. It will also be the only direct service from Victoria and Salford Central to the stations beyond Bolton.

On the other hand, Westhoughton has the hourly Alderley Edge to Wigan NW, which runs fast from Salford Crescent to Bolton, in addition to the Stalybridge - Wigan NW stopper. Wigan NW also has a non stop service from Manchester via the Chat Moss line.

Overall, more passengers would have an increased journey time if the stops were transferred as you suggest.

 

[Kite159]

The Victoria - Preston EMU will be the only service to Blackrod and Adlington. It will also be the only direct service from Victoria and Salford Central to the stations beyond Bolton.

On the other hand, Westhoughton has the hourly Alderley Edge to Wigan NW, which runs fast from Salford Crescent to Bolton, in addition to the Stalybridge - Wigan NW stopper. Wigan NW also has a non stop service from Manchester via the Chat Moss line.

Overall, more passengers would have an increased journey time if the stops were transferred as you suggest.

Ignoring that having an EMU on a local stopper will be better for time keeping than DMUs?

 

[Greybeard33]

Ignoring that having an EMU on a local stopper will be better for time keeping than DMUs?

What do you think would be the time saving between Salford Crescent and Bolton if the stopper were a 319 EMU (to Preston) versus a 769 bi-mode (to Wigan)? Under the wires they will have essentially the same performance, except the 769 will have a bit of extra weight to carry.

 

[Kite159]

What do you think would be the time saving between Salford Crescent and Bolton if the stopper were a 319 EMU (to Preston) versus a 769 bi-mode (to Wigan)? Under the wires they will have essentially the same performance, except the 769 will have a bit of extra weight to carry.

Ah the mysterious 769, which still hasn't been out testing on the main-line...

 

[darloscott]

Sticking a 319 on Preston-Victoria should give you a 2 hour round trip using 2 units but you'd only have around 5-6 mins turn at each end, similar to the Buckshaw DMU diagrams now. Adding extra stops into the Preston service would push it over the 2 hour rounder and therefore cost you another unit & crew - unless you could interwork it at either end with something else.

 

[tbtc]

I think the Hull - Leeds Northern services have been dropped.

No they haven’t. The service planned is Halifax to Hull.

Excuse my ignorance here, as someone who lives in *South* Yorkshire, rather than West, but that means that the Leeds departures on the Calder Valley route will be

• hourly to Preston (or Blackpool), starting at York
• hourly to Chester
• hourly to Liverpool
• hourly to Southport
• hourly to Bradford Interchange, starting at Nottingham
• hourly to Halifax, starting at Hull
• hourly to Huddersfield (via Brighouse)

...one of those services was due to run from Leeds to Hebden Bridge via Brighouse (rather than via Bradford Interchange - I forget which one) but that still leaves six services per hour, which will presumably all be run with two/three coach DMUs...

...do we learn nothing from the problems elsewhere in t'North? This obsession with lots of through trains rather than a reliable timetable with trains of a decent length? It's like we want to design a timetable that will fall over at minimal disruption (so that a tiny delay at Chester/ Liverpool/ Southport will disrupt the six services per hour crossing the flat throat of Bradford Interchange)? Is there really enough through demand for some of these routes, other than a "Bradford" Wish List for hourly connectivity to everywhere and anywhere?

If my maths is right (?) then six per hour from Leeds towards Bradford Interchange will no doubt end up with lots of badly co-ordinated long distance services, gaps of over fifteen minutes at times etc.

Grr!

 

[Llama]

Plus the Grand Central services from Bradford. The Southport trains are the ones which go via Dewsbury. It's gone quiet about the Lime Street services though, didn't the specification originally say that they only had to run from Bradford rather than Leeds?

 

[Glenn1969]

I live in Halifax and there definitely is demand for these extra services. I don't think the Liverpool service or the Bradford to Manchester Airport service will start until 2020.

Bradford and Calderdale combined are a bigger population than Kirklees so why should we not have at least the same level of service as Huddersfield and Dewsbury do?

 

[Mollman]

The Nottingham - Bradford is meant to turn into the Bradford - Manchester Airport service

 

[Glenn1969]

Thanks for that. I would that useful- I am a basketball club GM who has to travel several times a year from Halifax to Sheffield and beyond for games. I can't do that journey without hitching a lift at present due to early last train and hopeless connections

 

[Tim33160]

Can't see Northern adding any additional Sunday services whilst they have a shortage of drivers on Sundays. Keep hearing about them needing a "Reliable and Stable service" before they add any new services in May - or even in December!