Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Bantamzen]

There seem to be a lot more 321/322s working all day out of Leeds today - is this due to the new timetable or just covering for out of service 333s?

There have been more out and about for a couple of weeks now.

 

[agbrs_Jack]

Like I've said multiple times already it seems Northern have based the entire Macclesfield/Stoke May 2018 timetable on TSR1, as is the case with other lines. Complain about one service being two minutes earlier than it should be all you want but that has to be one the smallest breaches mentioned on this forum, so few people are going to have sympathy for the last service not meeting TSR2 requirements. Yes under TSR2 the last Stoke service is supposed to be at least 2 minutes later but the one in the timetable has a bad path between Piccadilly and Stockport (behind a service timed for a 75mph DMU.) As a consequence of that it means it departs Stockport at 21:57, so from Stockport onwards it's no later than a 21:49 service from Piccadilly with a good path and I can't see any Piccadilly arrivals at around 21:35 where an official connection can't be made.

Putting forward an argument that the franchise requirement for the last service is too early is fair enough, provided you and others that would use a later service made that point when the franchise was being consulted on.

This is not my main point and is nowhere near as relevant as the main commitment that they have broken; The removal of the 1710 DGT-SOT.
This affects many more people than the last service does and I only mentioned it because it also breaks the commitments, the removal of 1710 DGT-SOT (or rather the change to re-time it and terminate it at MAC when more passengers alighted at CNG than MAC on that service) gives Congleton an hourly service in the evening peak, that is totally unacceptable and breaks Northern's service level commitments.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

158871 is currently down to work the 17:42 Man Airport to Barrow; firstly where is the booked 185 and secondly how long must it be since a Northern 158 last worked through the Piccadilly corridor?

Don't think a Northern one has since 2004/05 when they moved the FNW sets to Neville Hill.

I would think it highly likely that Northern 158s have been working through Piccadilly on a regular basis for many years but not in public service. That route is used by empty stock moves between Victoria and Newton Heath just about every night/early morning even if only by one train to allow drivers to retain their route knowledge. With the opening of the Ordsall Chord it now only needs the one reversal at Ashburys. Of course 158s are a tiny minority among the stock needing to make such moves but nevertheless the scope has long been there. Kudos to anyone who has ever managed to photograph one of these workings!

 

[IanXC]

158871 is currently down to work the 17:42 Man Airport to Barrow; firstly where is the booked 185 and secondly how long must it be since a Northern 158 last worked through the Piccadilly corridor?

What makes you think it is *still* booked for a 185??

 

[Bovverboy]

I would think it highly likely that Northern 158s have been working through Piccadilly on a regular basis for many years but not in public service. That route is used by empty stock moves between Victoria and Newton Heath just about every night/early morning even if only by one train to allow drivers to retain their route knowledge. With the opening of the Ordsall Chord it now only needs the one reversal at Ashburys. Of course 158s are a tiny minority among the stock needing to make such moves but nevertheless the scope has long been there. Kudos to anyone who has ever managed to photograph one of these workings!

Sorry, Mr Hunter, I don't think that your post makes much sense. There have always been plenty of ECS workings from Oxford Road/Piccadilly to Newton Heath (and vice versa, of course), reversing at Ashburys/Guide Bridge/Stalybridge, certainly sufficient for drivers to retain route knowledge. I've never known an ECS working Victoria to Newton Heath via Piccadilly.
Prior to the opening of the Ordsall Chord there were a small number of ECS workings from Piccadilly/Oxford Road to Newton Heath, reversing at Salford Crescent, or, occasionally, Eccles. I remember the last ex-Buxton train going that way (finishing public service in platform 14 at Picc) but I think there was also the stock off a Liverpool to Oxford Road stopper which routinely went to Newton Heath the same way. Plenty of scope there for drivers to retain knowledge of Oxford Road - Salford Crescent - Victoria, so I don't see what the point of a Victoria - Piccadilly - Newton Heath working would be.

 

[Bovverboy]

Philip said: ↑
158871 is currently down to work the 17:42 Man Airport to Barrow; firstly where is the booked 185 and secondly how long must it be since a Northern 158 last worked through the Piccadilly corridor?

What makes you think it is *still* booked for a 185??

It has been reiterated on this forum that Northern are going to continue hiring 185s from TPE, and the Barrow to Manchester Airport service is the only suitable diesel-operated service which is timed for 100mph units.
Okay, Northern have received so much stock from elsewhere just lately that you'd think they'd be able to do without 185s, but I don't know whether they have been doing so or not.

 

[Loop & Link]

What makes you think it is *still* booked for a 185??

Should be booked 2 x 185’s the service in question.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Which stock is running the Liverpool to Wilmslow and Crewe services

319s or 323s?

I believe that it advertised as Deansgate from Crewe up to Wilmslow and Manchester Piccadilly from Liverpool to Newton

The 319 I boarded at Wilmslow on Sunday was shown as Deansgate on the boards; it was posted as Liverpool at the Airport.

 

[ag51ruk]

I believe that it advertised as Deansgate from Crewe up to Wilmslow and Manchester Piccadilly from Liverpool to Newton

The 7.13 from Crewe this morning was showing as 'Liverpool Lime Street via Manchester Airport' on the screens

 

[Philip]

Should be booked 2 x 185’s the service in question.

Today it is showing as a single 156! I'm guessing once everything settles down it'll return to the normal traction fare?

 

[scrapy]

Or someone travelling from Rainhill to Manchester Airport.

Just as confusing Blackburn no longer has any trains to Manchester listed on the departure boards just Southport and Rochdale. People are assuming the Rochdale trains depart to the east and Southport to the west. To get to Southport you are usually quicker getting on the Rochdale train and changing to get to Rochdale you are usually quicker getting on the Southport train.

 

[Bovverboy]

The 7.13 from Crewe this morning was showing as 'Liverpool Lime Street via Manchester Airport' on the screens

Common sense prevails at last!

It could be thought that 'Liverpool via Manchester' would be more appropriate, but I suppose that 'via Manchester Airport' needs to be stipulated in order to distinguish from 'via Stockport'.
There's a similar situation on Manchester Metrolink. On the off-peak service, trams depart Eccles showing, not 'Ashton via Piccadilly', or simply 'Ashton', but in fact 'Ashton via MediaCityUK', the reason being to distinguish between the off-peak and peak services, the latter not calling at MediaCityUK.

 

[northwichcat]

I notice the Piccadilly to Chester service that skips Navigation Road for some reason but calls at all other stations from Stockport, passed Navigation Road 4 minutes early last night - plenty of time to stop!

 

[northwichcat]

t could be thought that 'Liverpool via Manchester' would be more appropriate, but I suppose that 'via Manchester Airport' needs to be stipulated in order to distinguish from 'via Stockport'.

Worth noting the Alderley Edge to Wigan via Stockport service overtakes the Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport so passengers for Piccadilly and Oxford Road at Alderley Edge and Wilmslow are better off boarding the later service.

 

[Philip]

I notice the Piccadilly to Chester service that skips Navigation Road for some reason but calls at all other stations from Stockport, passed Navigation Road 4 minutes early last night - plenty of time to stop!

It might be that a freight is held up somewhere further back or ahead if the train stops there, since it is single track through that station. There will be a reason for it not stopping there, they won't miss it for the sake of it.

 

[td97]

All the trains on the Clitheroe/Blackburn to Rochdale services, which used to be 3 or 4 carriages in the peaks are running as 2 carriages today, with nothing showing on journey check to suggest these are short formed. Have posed the question on Twitter without response, but guess they might be busy today. To be clear the number of trains over the peaks has not changed, just the timing smoothed to provide a more consistently spaced 1/2 hour service.

Did they get back to you on this?

Also, Northern seem to be have put on peak extras for this morning on the Bolton line, such as 2T04

 

[Jeni]

Looks like most of the Hazel Grove - Manchester trains are now departing from P1 at Hazel Grove - which seems to be causing some confusion for those who are creatures of habit and don't check the boards!

The on board screens/announcements were very sure that the 0921 was stopping at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme, when it doesn't.

 

[northwichcat]

It might be that a freight is held up somewhere further back if the train stops there. There will be a reason for it not stopping there, they won't miss it for the sake of it.

My guess is Northern requested a path for an 22:52 Stockport-Altrincham and it got pushed back to 22:56 Stockport-Altrincham due to an off-pattern northbound Cleethorpes service meaning it gets to Navigation Road 4 minutes before the Fiddlers Ferry P Stn Flhh to Redcar High Level freight train goes through Navigation Road, instead of 8 minutes and Network Rail thought that was too close to allow it to stop and it was too late to re-time the freight train (which spends half an hour waiting at Edgley Junction anyway, so getting there 10 minutes later wouldn't be an issue for it!)

 

[Chrisyd]

Did they get back to you on this?

Also, Northern seem to be have put on peak extras for this morning on the Bolton line, such as 2T04

No response, although in other threads I note they had a massive spike in tweets, so I am not taking it personally!

This morning, the services leaving Bromley Cross between 7 and 9am ran as 3 carriages, 3 carriages (25 minutes late), cancelled (train crew), 4 carriages (15 minutes late). So even with a cancelled train they managed 2 more carriages between 7 and 9am than yesterday, so hopefully yesterday represented the low point.

 

[geoffk]

Just as confusing Blackburn no longer has any trains to Manchester listed on the departure boards just Southport and Rochdale. People are assuming the Rochdale trains depart to the east and Southport to the west. To get to Southport you are usually quicker getting on the Rochdale train and changing to get to Rochdale you are usually quicker getting on the Southport train.

Love this one.

 

[Greybeard33]

158871 is currently down to work the 17:42 Man Airport to Barrow; firstly where is the booked 185 and secondly how long must it be since a Northern 158 last worked through the Piccadilly corridor?

What makes you think it is *still* booked for a 185??

Should be booked 2 x 185’s the service in question.

Today it is showing as a single 156! I'm guessing once everything settles down it'll return to the normal traction fare?

From RTT I doubt that Northern has any 185s today. I believe that the 0841 Airport to Barrow (1C51) is intended to be formed from 2x185, with the rear portion detached at Preston. However, this service was terminated at Preston, 57 late, with the unusual declared reason:

This service was cancelled between Preston and Barrow-in-Furness due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train (MS).

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22835/2018/05/22/advanced

The same pair of 185s would go on to work the 1742 Airport to Barrow (1C54). Reported on another thread that yesterday the substitute 158 was so rammed that only about 10 passengers managed to board at Oxford Road.

 

[156443]

Forgot the timetables had changed until I saw on here as I’m in Carlisle today seeing 48151 and 60103 (got the bus here and train back) resulting in a longer wait to go home. At least I’m not in a hurry to get back.

 

[Bovverboy]

Greybeard33 said:
From RTT I doubt that Northern has any 185s today. I believe that the 0841 Airport to Barrow (1C51) is intended to be formed from 2x185, with the rear portion detached at Preston. However, this service was terminated at Preston, 57 late, with the unusual declared reason:
This service was cancelled between Preston and Barrow-in-Furness due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train (MS).

On the 0611 from Barrow you could probably just about account for the loss of five minutes between there and Preston through the inferiority of a Sprinter (presumably) compared to a 185. The loss of nine minutes between Preston and Salford Crescent is harder to explain, and it would certainly be impossible to explain the loss of twenty-three minutes between there and Manchester Airport. Clearly there were other factors involved in the loss of time.

Incidentally, the loss of the five minutes between Barrow and Preston was recovered at the latter point, since, of course, the addition of the second unit was cancelled!

 

[northwichcat]

due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train (MS).

Similar to that the 09:41 Manchester to Chester suffered a slight delay yesterday as a 142 had finished up on a diagram which had a Buxton service as its' next working, so a swap was done to put the 142 on the 09:41 to Chester instead.

I also don't know if the platform numbers at Piccadilly on RTT for yesterday are correct but if they are a 150 which came off a Chester service worked a Stoke service as far as Macclesfield, where it was terminated.

 

[Greybeard33]

My guess is Northern requested a path for an 22:52 Stockport-Altrincham and it got pushed back to 22:56 Stockport-Altrincham due to an off-pattern northbound Cleethorpes service meaning it gets to Navigation Road 4 minutes before the Fiddlers Ferry P Stn Flhh to Redcar High Level freight train goes through Navigation Road, instead of 8 minutes and Network Rail thought that was too close to allow it to stop and it was too late to re-time the freight train (which spends half an hour waiting at Edgley Junction anyway, so getting there 10 minutes later wouldn't be an issue for it!)

Perhaps a more important reason is that it is scheduled through Mickle Trafford Junction only 4 minutes ahead of the ATW 2314 Piccadilly to Chester. The time needed for a stop at Navigation Road would cause a conflict.

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps a more important reason is that it is scheduled through Mickle Trafford Junction only 4 minutes ahead of the ATW 2314 Piccadilly to Chester. The time needed for a stop at Navigation Road would cause a conflict.

If that's the case why skip Navigation Road rather than Ashley or just hold the train at Mouldsworth for a few minutes like has been done with the 15:41 Manchester to Chester on Saturdays?

 

[Greybeard33]

Similar to that the 09:41 Manchester to Chester suffered a slight delay yesterday as a 142 had finished up on a diagram which had a Buxton service as its' next working, so a swap was done to put the 142 on the 09:41 to Chester instead.

The new Mid Cheshire line timetable is less resilient to delays, because the hourly Northern services in opposite directions are scheduled to cross close to the Navigation Road single line. For example, this afternoon the 1502 Chester to Piccadilly was 4 minutes late at Altrincham, so the on-time 1541 Piccadilly to Chester was allowed through the single line before it. This made the eastbound service 8 late at Stockport. Consequently the 1534 Buxton to Piccadilly, which was on time at Davenport, had to wait for a platform at Stockport, and ended up 13 late at Levenshulme.

 

[northwichcat]

The new Mid Cheshire line timetable is less resilient to delays, because the hourly Northern services in opposite directions are scheduled to cross close to the Navigation Road single line.

The timetable that was going to be introduced, until it was announced Bolton wasn't going to be wired by May, had an ex-Greenbank service arriving at Piccadilly at xx:30 and then departing for Chester at xx:41 so it probably was less of an issue when one was going to skip Navigation Road and the other was going to call there.

For example, this afternoon the 1502 Chester to Piccadilly was 4 minutes late at Altrincham

With the exception of next week, expect that service to be late every weekday until July given it's now 2 cars instead of 4 and there's a large number of schoolkids getting on at Greenbank (getting off at various stations), as well as a significant number of schoolkids getting on at Knutsford. Without 8 sets of passengers doors the dwell times in the timetable are unrealistic.

 

[Greybeard33]

If that's the case why skip Navigation Road rather than Ashley or just hold the train at Mouldsworth for a few minutes like has been done with the 15:41 Manchester to Chester on Saturdays?

Maybe because skipping Ashley would cause a 2 hour gap in the service from Manchester, whereas Navigation Road users have the Metrolink option? And/or an issue with traincrew working hours?

 

[northwichcat]

Maybe because skipping Ashley would cause a 2 hour gap in the service from Manchester, whereas Navigation Road users have the Metrolink option?

I doubt that's the reason. Northern are required to give Navigation Road a service to Stockport, Knutsford and Northwich as well as Manchester and tickets aren't interchangable between Northern and Metrolink. Plus fairly recently the first Sunday service skipped Lostock Gralam and Ashley to ensure it got to Edgley Junction in time for its' path from Stockport to Bolton.