Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[absolutelymilk]

TPE have shaved southbound 5 minutes off preston-manchester via bolton compared to Wigan and 8 minutes off lancaster-manchester via Bolton compared to previous times while maintaining the same northbound times.

Why are southbound times quicker but not northbound?

 

[Muzer]

I can't find any links to the proposed timetable changes themselves - are they public? Are there any more details anywhere on the proposed Chester to Leeds service (calling pattern/route etc.)? Sorry, I did try to search but wasn't able to find anything.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't find any links to the proposed timetable changes themselves - are they public? Are there any more details anywhere on the proposed Chester to Leeds service (calling pattern/route etc.)? Sorry, I did try to search but wasn't able to find anything.

No it's a stakeholder consultation which groups like PTEs, RUGs and local councils are being asked for feedback opposed to a consultation open to everyone.

However, the route for that service has already been confirmed Chester-Warrington-Victoria-Halifax-Bradford-Leeds, with some peak time services going to Ellesmere Port instead (ATW will still provide 2tph between Chester and Manchester at peak times.) Standard calling pattern will see Chester-Leeds services running non-stop between Chester and Warrington.

 

[Muzer]

No it's a stakeholder consultation which groups like PTEs, RUGs and local councils are being asked for feedback opposed to a consultation open to everyone.

However, the route for that service has already been confirmed Chester-Warrington-Victoria-Halifax-Bradford-Leeds, with some peak time services going to Ellesmere Port instead (ATW will still provide 2tph between Chester and Manchester at peak times.) Standard calling pattern will see Chester-Leeds services running non-stop between Chester and Warrington.

Ooh, very interesting. Many thanks! Is this extra services going to Ellesmere Port or would the few existing Northern services be replaced with these?

 

[northwichcat]

The existing Ellesmere Port services will go. They'll be an early Warrington to E Port, an E Port to Leeds arriving in Manchester pre 9am, a reverse service leaving Manchester post 5pm and then a return working to Leeds.

 

[bradford758]

I can't find any links to the proposed timetable changes themselves - are they public? Are there any more details anywhere on the proposed Chester to Leeds service (calling pattern/route etc.)? Sorry, I did try to search but wasn't able to find anything.

The Chester/Ellesmere Port - Leeds services are to replace the semi fast train via Bradford Interchange, with calls at Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge.

 

[WatcherZero]

Why are southbound times quicker but not northbound?

Can be speed differentials for opposite directions and southbound is generally downhill both on the WCML and Bolton line, but I think its primarily congestion, they have to thread it between other existing services on the WCML which may mean waiting for clear signal.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

The situation with the new improved frequency between Sheffield, Worksop and Retford is perhaps going to be even worse. There's been much publicity in the local press about Retford and Worksop getting a half hourly service throughout the day to/from Sheffield. I wonder what people will think when they actually see the proposed timetable!
Taking Worksop as the example the trains towards Sheffield are to leave Worksop at xx24 and xx41 which is only 17 minutes apart.
In the opposite direction it's even worse with trains arriving in Worksop from Sheffield and departing to Retford at xx06 and xx59 which unbelievably is only 7 minutes apart.
Hardly a half hourly service.

There's also been publicity about this so called half hourly service providing better connections at Worksop for journeys between Sheffield and the Mansfield area. With the train from Nottingham arriving in Worksop at xx33 connections will be greatly improved when travelling from Mansfield to Sheffield. However, connections are now going to be far worse in the opposite direction as the Nottingham train leaves Worksop at xx41

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=150498

 

[IanXC]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=150498

Yes, very interesting proposals being discussed over on that thread.

 

[scrapy]

Can be speed differentials for opposite directions and southbound is generally downhill both on the WCML and Bolton line, but I think its primarily congestion, they have to thread it between other existing services on the WCML which may mean waiting for clear signal.

Crossing Euxton junction generally a lot slower northbound due to conflicts.

 

[158756]

Harrogate doesn't want faster services: http://www.harrogateadvertiser.co.u...er-harrogate-rail-timetable-changes-1-8708642

 

[northwichcat]

Harrogate doesn't want faster services: http://www.harrogateadvertiser.co.u...er-harrogate-rail-timetable-changes-1-8708642

The group, led by the town’s chamber of commerce transport spokesman Brian Dunsby, claims that extra trains being introduced between Harrogate and Leeds will not serve nearly half of the passengers waiting at stations because they will be “non-stop”.

Reader comment:

Come on Brian, don't be an idiot. You've spent the last 5 years calling for faster services to Harrogate and now finally we're getting them but now you're asking that they stop at every station instead.

 

[Kite159]

You couldn't really make it up.

You can either have fast limited stop trains or additional stoppers which take the same length of time

 

[northwichcat]

You couldn't really make it up.

You can either have fast limited stop trains or additional stoppers which take the same length of time

Remember he's part of the group who called for 4th rail electrification and underground trains for the line!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A quick websearch reveals that Brian Dunsby's local station is Hornbeam Park! There's nothing quite like self-interest...

 

[70014IronDuke]

From Leeds to Carlisle:

05:19
07:47
09:19
11:20
13:20
15:20
17:19
18:19

From Leeds to Lancaster:

07:19
08:19
10:20
12:20
14:20
17:50
19:18

This is a vastly improved Leeds-Lancaster and v v service. Presumably there should be an 05.20 ish departure from Skipton to form the 06.48 from Lancaster?

And this new timing means the first train will then arrive in Leeds c 08.45, ie peak commuting time - rather than 09.05?

I suspect the 17.50 ex-Leeds might get a bit cosy on a summer Friday night though.

 

[janb]

This is a vastly improved Leeds-Lancaster and v v service. Presumably there should be an 05.20 ish departure from Skipton to form the 06.48 from Lancaster?

And this new timing means the first train will then arrive in Leeds c 08.45, ie peak commuting time - rather than 09.05?

0530 from Skipton into Lancaster 0642

0648 from Lancaster would be 0843 arrival into Leeds.

 

[northernchris]

0530 from Skipton into Lancaster 0642

0648 from Lancaster would be 0843 arrival into Leeds.

Any idea what time the last of the day will depart Lancaster and arrive Leeds?

 

[30907]

Any idea what time the last of the day will depart Lancaster and arrive Leeds?

2030 to Leeds and 2130 to Skipton. See post #83. Whether the last will have a connection remains to be seen.

Incidentally, I would have thought the 0720 ex Leeds could usefully be half an hour earlier to reach Lancaster around 0840 - I assume it will be fresh off Neville Hill.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[berneyarms]

I thought that an 0800-0900 arrival at Lancaster was a franchise requirement... The 0720 ex Leeds would mean an 0910ish arrival... 30 or 60 minutes earlier would be far more beneficial....

There is presumably going to be an earlier working from Skipton to Lancaster to balance out the set workings.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Whilst it is nice to see additional services, I feel that an opportunity has been missed to provide a timetable attractive to the day-tripper.

I don't have access to the consultation copies but piecing together the full timetable from the posts on this thread there still appear to be three-hour gaps in the services - just at the times you would want a service having gone for a country walk.

For example 1124 and then 1427 ex Carlisle giving the same three hour gap at, say Ribblehead (1248/1551), or 1443 and then 1743 ex Lancaster. In the other direction 1420 and then 1750 ex Leeds to Lancaster - not very good for shopping trips to Leeds. That 1750 is going to be the only option for both commuters and trippers.

 

[berneyarms]

Whilst it is nice to see additional services, I feel that an opportunity has been missed to provide a timetable attractive to the day-tripper.

I don't have access to the consultation copies but piecing together the full timetable from the posts on this thread there still appear to be three-hour gaps in the services - just at the times you would want a service having gone for a country walk.

For example 1124 and then 1427 ex Carlisle giving the same three hour gap at, say Ribblehead (1248/1551), or 1443 and then 1743 ex Lancaster. In the other direction 1420 and then 1750 ex Leeds to Lancaster - not very good for shopping trips to Leeds. That 1750 is going to be the only option for both commuters and trippers.

There isn't a 3 hour gap from Carlisle - there's a 13:40 service.

The times mentioned earlier were:

From Leeds to Carlisle:
05:19
07:47
09:19
11:20
13:20
15:20
17:19
18:19
19:49 (To Ribblehead)


From Carlisle to Leeds:
0551
0927
1124
1340
1427
1627
1824
2019
2145 (From Ribblehead)


From Leeds to Lancaster:
07:19
08:19
10:20
12:20
14:20
17:50
19:18


From Lancaster to Leeds:
0648
0938
1038
1243
1443
1743
2030
2130 (To Skipton)

Note that there must be another service towards Lancaster to balance out the set workings (unless one westbound is a double).

 

[Baxenden Bank]

There isn't a 3 hour gap from Carlisle - there's a 13:40 service.

The 1340 is the express, so of minimal benefit to users of intermediate stations.

Taking the details from post 63 on this thread:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=152246&page=5

For those interested here is a rough timetable for next May when it's due to change;

From Leeds to Carlisle
0519 - Does not stop at Gargrave, Long Preston and Dent
0746 - Does not stop at Gargrave, Hellifield, Long Preston, Ribblehead and Garsdale
0912 - Does not stop at Langwathby, Lazonby and Armathwaite
1120 - All stations
1320 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1520 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1719 - All stations
1819 - Does not stop at Gargrave and Long Preston
1949 - Terminates as Ribblehead. All stations

From Carlisle
0551 - All stations
0927 - Does not stop at Long Preston and Gargrave
1134 - All stations
1340 - Express Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle, Skipton etc
1427 - Does not stop at Long Preston, Hellifield and Gargrave
1627 - Does not stop at Long Preston and Gargrave
1824 - All stations
2019 - Express Appleby, Kirkby Stephen, Settle, Skipton etc
2145 - Starts at Ribblehead, all stations. Runs 15 mins behind the 2019

Thanks to Trainmananthon for the details.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There isn't a 3 hour gap from Carlisle - there's a 13:40 service.

The times mentioned earlier were:
...

From Leeds to Lancaster:
07:19
08:19
10:20
12:20
14:20
17:50
19:18


From Lancaster to Leeds:
0648
0938
1038
1243
1443
1743
2030
2130 (To Skipton)

Note that there must be another service towards Lancaster to balance out the set workings (unless one westbound is a double).

That is the 05.30-ish ex-Skipton, whcih I mentioned up thread.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...
Incidentally, I would have thought the 0720 ex Leeds could usefully be half an hour earlier to reach Lancaster around 0840 - I assume it will be fresh off Neville Hill.

You would think an attempt would be made to get a 'commuter' time arrival in at Lancaster, wouldn't you? Would need to leave Skipton at about 07.30 for an 08.40 arrival. Perhaps it would mean extending a shift or some overtime, and the extra cost is not deemed worth it. Does anyone think there would be any significant commuter flow attracted?

Whatever, the changes mean that the daily service on this route jump from 5 (and one of those is probably almost ECS in the ultra early morning) to 8. Almost a decent service.

Will be very interesting to see if this attracts increased usage of the line.

 

[Chester1]

There may be others, but so far, I have only found the following.
15:42 Leeds - Ellesmere Port (Helsby 18:01)

07:15 & 18:22 Ellesmere Port - Leeds

That would make the service even worse than the current service.

Does anyone who the proposed weekend service times?

 

[northwichcat]

Well it does at least allow you to have a day out outside the local area and get the train home afterwards.

 

[Halish Railway]

Is there any news on the traction for the S&C and Lancaster routes. I've heard Northern are likely to keep the popular 158's on the S&C. In my opinion I would try and run 158's to Lancaster as there are many people who make start to end journeys on that route. After all Leeds to Heysham on a 2 coach 150 is a bit horrible. Also have the services been timed to meet the boats at Heysham?

 

[Whistler40145]

Northern are probably waiting to cascade 156s onto the Leeds-Lancaster service, but does the traincrew involved have traction knowledge?