Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[Bletchleyite]

So in short because you find the TPE compulsory cycle reservations unsuitable for your needs you wouldn't use TPE to Oxford Rd even if they still ran it.

Don't forget they'll be 17:38 and 18:38 Northern services from Stalybridge to Piccadilly and that some trains (including the last train to Stalybridge) will serve Salford Central, which is a bit closer to Fallowfield than Victoria.

I do think cycle reservations are a good thing as they control a very limited resource. But it'd really help if ATOC would develop some kind of app to allow them to be made more easily than having to queue at a staffed ticket office. A version of the app would allow a guard to check availability and put in a reservation on his own train. And all the online sales sites need to do them.

 

[PFE]

A Macclesfield-Blackpool electric service (and many other new services) was due to have started on May 20.
However the Salford-Bolton-Preston line is still being electrified and won't be finished before summer at the earliest.
So Northern have had to rewrite their timetable for May 20, and are short of diesel trains to cover all the planned new services.
So some of the new services are not going to operate, and others will only be partially working.
Until Northern publish their timetable we can only speculate on services, based on snippets of information from various places.

You can of course get an electric train from Oxford Road to Preston now (TP to Scotland, via Wigan), and Northern will start a Manchester Airport-Blackpool electric service (also via Wigan) as soon as the Blackpool line goes live which hopefully will be on May 20.
Macclesfield-Oxford Road-Bolton-Preston should be running by December, but until then it will terminate at Piccadilly.
The trains themselves might change as 4-car class 319s will be working more services from May 20 (new trains are due next year).
Welcome to the forum by the way.

Thanks for the response, although it wasn't the newsI was hoping.

Having tracked down the times proposed I see that there will be 1 less train that can get me to Piccadilly before 10am and no Oxford Road-Macclesfield direct return service (currently 1-per-day at 17.13). If the changes are realised in December it will be worth it, but this project doesn't seem to have a great track record in sticking to deadlines.

 

[Bovverboy]

A strange journey is 5F41 (SuX), 1819 Preston - Warrington Bank Quay arr 1847 (319).
This would appear to be the return working of 2N99 Liverpool Lime Street - Preston, arr 1814. There's no sign of anything happening to it after 1847 so the implication is that it couples to 2F35, 1911 Warrington Bank Quay - Liverpool Lime Street.

It now appears that, after arriving from Preston, 5F41 it isn't going to couple to 2F35, it's going to form it. So either I misread RTT previously, or things have changed. (On Saturdays 2F35 is going to be 1910 rather than 1911).
One omission from RTT at the moment seems to be next movement of the DMU which arrives at Warrington Bank Quay from Ellesmere Port on Saturdays at 0721. On M/F the equivalent working is going to come in service from Ellesmere Port then go ECS to Wigan (pretty much as now).
At the moment on Saturdays it runs ECS Helsby to Liverpool Lime Street - via Chester!

A potential contradiction lies in the fact that 2F80 (0753SO Chester to Runcorn) is shown as operating 26/5/18 to 5/9/18. This would be the normal progression of the 0653 Ellesmere Port to Helsby, during the period which 2F80 operates.

I had it in my head that 2F80 wasn't going to operate this year (because of the ongoing works to return the single line section to two-way running).

 

[pemma]

One omission from RTT at the moment seems to be next movement of the DMU which arrives at Warrington Bank Quay from Ellesmere Port on Saturdays at 0721. On M/F the equivalent working is going to come in service from Ellesmere Port then go ECS to Wigan (pretty much as now).
At the moment on Saturdays it runs ECS Helsby to Liverpool Lime Street - via Chester!

A potential contradiction lies in the fact that 2F80 (0753SO Chester to Runcorn) is shown as operating 26/5/18 to 5/9/18. This would be the normal progression of the 0653 Ellesmere Port to Helsby, during the period which 2F80 operates.

I had it in my head that 2F80 wasn't going to operate this year (because of the ongoing works to return the single line section to two-way running).

I'm not sure what ECS you're referring to as I can't see one. At the moment on Saturdays there's no ECS movements to Chester first thing and the 05:58 to Piccadilly and 06:51 to Piccadilly are showing as departing before any units arrive, plus the 07:53 to Runcorn is showing as departing from platform 5 when the only previous Northern arrival is the 07:40 arrival from Piccadilly shown as going in to platform 6. There's also no ECS movements shown for late Saturday/early Sunday to take the units used on the Mid-Cheshire services back to Newton Heath/Longsight. There is an 18:21 Chester platform 6 to Helsby ECS on Saturdays so presumably that means the 15:41 Piccadilly to Chester (arriving at platform 6) will be 4 cars and the return working to Piccadilly will only be 2 cars.

 

[snail]

You can of course get an electric train from Oxford Road to Preston now (TP to Scotland, via Wigan), and Northern will start a Manchester Airport-Blackpool electric service (also via Wigan) as soon as the Blackpool line goes live which hopefully will be on May 20.

But the TP services are not stopping at Oxford Road from May, they are all direct Preston-Piccadilly.

 

[Mathew S]

But the TP services are not stopping at Oxford Road from May, they are all direct Preston-Piccadilly.

True. If you absolutely have to travel to Ox Road then get the Northern EMU Blackpool-Airport train. Otherwise, get the TPE and either tram it to Deansgate or just walk to Ox Road from Picadilly - it's 10 minutes walk at the most, so hardly a massive chore.

 

[Loop & Link]

I'm not sure what ECS you're referring to as I can't see one. At the moment on Saturdays there's no ECS movements to Chester first thing and the 05:58 to Piccadilly and 06:51 to Piccadilly are showing as departing before any units arrive, plus the 07:53 to Runcorn is showing as departing from platform 5 when the only previous Northern arrival is the 07:40 arrival from Piccadilly shown as going in to platform 6. There's also no ECS movements shown for late Saturday/early Sunday to take the units used on the Mid-Cheshire services back to Newton Heath/Longsight. There is an 18:21 Chester platform 6 to Helsby ECS on Saturdays so presumably that means the 15:41 Piccadilly to Chester (arriving at platform 6) will be 4 cars and the return working to Piccadilly will only be 2 cars.

I think he’s referring to the current ECS move from Helsby - Chester - Lime Street on Saturday’s which during Summer Saturday’s does 07:53 Chester - Runcorn.

The platforms on RTT mean very little (at this stage) that service ex-Man Picc could easily detach a unit from May for the 07:53. But haven’t seen the diagrams yet so can’t confirm at this stage.

 

[bramling]

I do think cycle reservations are a good thing as they control a very limited resource. But it'd really help if ATOC would develop some kind of app to allow them to be made more easily than having to queue at a staffed ticket office. A version of the app would allow a guard to check availability and put in a reservation on his own train. And all the online sales sites need to do them.

I don't have an issue with compulsory reservations on very busy trains with little room, however there does need to be some flexibility / discretion shown when there is plenty of space available, as it's simply not always possible to plan in advance. No doubt this is what would happen most of the time in the real world anyway, but it does run the risk of an arsey conductor choosing to be awkward because they can.

 

[Bovverboy]

jcollins said: ↑
I'm not sure what ECS you're referring to as I can't see one. At the moment on Saturdays there's no ECS movements to Chester first thing and the 05:58 to Piccadilly and 06:51 to Piccadilly are showing as departing before any units arrive, plus the 07:53 to Runcorn is showing as departing from platform 5 when the only previous Northern arrival is the 07:40 arrival from Piccadilly shown as going in to platform 6. There's also no ECS movements shown for late Saturday/early Sunday to take the units used on the Mid-Cheshire services back to Newton Heath/Longsight. There is an 18:21 Chester platform 6 to Helsby ECS on Saturdays so presumably that means the 15:41 Piccadilly to Chester (arriving at platform 6) will be 4 cars and the return working to Piccadilly will only be 2 cars.

I think he’s referring to the current ECS move from Helsby - Chester - Lime Street on Saturday’s which during Summer Saturday’s does 07:53 Chester - Runcorn.

Indeed, but it wasn't 100% clear.

The platforms on RTT mean very little (at this stage) that service ex-Man Picc could easily detach a unit from May for the 07:53. But haven’t seen the diagrams yet so can’t confirm at this stage.

It did occur to me that the stock for the 0753 Chester - Runcorn could be brought by the ex-Picc train, but I more or less discounted that possibility since
1) the lack of an ECS working preceding the 0753 sort of ties in with the fact that on the new timetable, on Saturdays, 2D02 (0653 Ellesmere Port - Warrington Bank Quay) sort of 'disappears' after WBQ;
2) in recent years the 0753 has always been formed from the stock of an incoming ECS working.

 

[Kite159]

But the TP services are not stopping at Oxford Road from May, they are all direct Preston-Piccadilly.

Why do I picture some passengers wanting Oxford Road boarding at Piccadilly using the current assumption that "everything stops at Oxford Road so jump on the first service" getting carried all the way to Preston?

I understand the reasoning with removing the Wigan call, but not quite the reasoning of removing the Oxford Road, especially since it will probably be following a late running service which calls at Oxford Road anyhow

 

[Mathew S]

Why do I picture some passengers wanting Oxford Road boarding at Piccadilly using the current assumption that "everything stops at Oxford Road so jump on the first service" getting carried all the way to Preston?

I understand the reasoning with removing the Wigan call, but not quite the reasoning of removing the Oxford Road, especially since it will probably be following a late running service which calls at Oxford Road anyhow

I'd expect it's possible to run the Scotland services through Ox Road platform 1 while something sits in platform 2 if needs be.

As for passengers being over-carried to Preston, I'd say it's guaranteed. But pax have nobody to blame for that but themselves, the monitors will clearly say where the train stops and "check before you travel" isn't exactly a new message.

 

[Chester1]

Could the Oxford Road stops be reintroduced prior to December if the wiring is done before then?

 

[Bovverboy]

As for passengers being over-carried to Preston, I'd say it's guaranteed. But pax have nobody to blame for that but themselves, the monitors will clearly say where the train stops and "check before you travel" isn't exactly a new message.

I would imagine there would be an on-board announcement at Piccadilly, similar to as now at Oxford Road (experience says) in respect of those journeys which currently skip Wigan North Western.

 

[Mathew S]

I would imagine there would be an on-board announcement at Piccadilly, similar to as now at Oxford Road (experience says) in respect of those journeys which currently skip Wigan North Western.

I'd certainly hope so. TPE staff seem pretty astute in my experience, so I'm sure they'll do all they can to get the message across. Doubtless, there'll still be some who think that they know better.

 

[janb]

The Skipton Lancaster line was allegedly meant to get improvements, but that seems not to be the case - the service is even more erratic than now.

Departures from Lancaster:

Now - 0707 1049 1349 1605 (via MCM) 1924

May - 0648 1045 1245 1745 2030 2134

Departures from Skipton:

Now - 0541 0855 1100 1401 1725

May - 0522 0856 1057 1458 1808 2000

So yes, there is an extra evening train, but at the expense of a worse daytime service which now has a 4 or 5 hour gap in services.

The gap has now been plugged a bit by the addition of a service leaving Leeds at 1220 (Skipton 1258) and return service from Lancaster at 1451 (via Morecambe)

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The gap has now been plugged a bit by the addition of a service leaving Leeds at 1220 (Skipton 1258) and return service from Lancaster at 1451 (via Morecambe)

Thanks, spotted that. That extra train was added some days after everything else was uploaded and also after the weekend when everything, allegedly, was going to be correct by!

 

[frodshamfella]

I think he’s referring to the current ECS move from Helsby - Chester - Lime Street on Saturday’s which during Summer Saturday’s does 07:53 Chester - Runcorn.

The platforms on RTT mean very little (at this stage) that service ex-Man Picc could easily detach a unit from May for the 07:53. But haven’t seen the diagrams yet so can’t confirm at this stage.

I wondered myself if the Chester to Runcorn direct Saturday morning would be running, but I did find it showing on a regular rail company booking site, so I guess yes. This will be the last year it does, with a proper service beginning in December, I expect.

 

[thejuggler]

As an occasional user of Apperley Bridge to Bradford it has been a frustration that the current service is either too early or too late for an 8am appointment.

I'm pleased the obvious "hole" between 6.56am and 7.48am has been filled with a 7.23am service.

 

[Deerfold]

As an occasional user of Apperley Bridge to Bradford it has been a frustration that the current service is either too early or too late for an 8am appointment.

I'm pleased the obvious "hole" between 6.56am and 7.48am has been filled with a 7.23am service.

It's not so much that it's been filled, as moved. The 0656 becomes 0641.

 

[DJH1971]

Looks like people around my neck of the woods are not happy....

http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/...is___Commuter_decries_train_time_alterations/

NORTHERN Rail has defended proposed changes to its service which passengers have claimed will see a declined peak hour service between St Helens stations and Manchester.

Changes are to be implemented part of timetable alterations by Northern Rail, due to come into effect next month.

One commuter, John Cross, 41, who says he travels from St Helens Junction to Manchester each day says his travel options will be halved, claiming it leaves him "not able to work contracted hours".

John, a Co-operative bank worker, said: "New train timetables come in to effect in May that significantly change the trains scheduled at the main commuter times to and from St Helens Junction and many other stations on the line.

 

[TUC]

Frankly, yes. Northern run trains with dedicated cycle spaces that can be used ad-hoc, at the same frequency as TPE - 2 per hour.
So why should I mess about with cycle reservations?

Someone was expressing concern to me today that they'd heard that Northern was moving to compulsory cycle reservations. Does anyone know whether there is any truth in this?

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes also heard moving to compulsory bike reservations but you can reserve a spot up until 10 minutes before the service departs.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes also heard moving to compulsory bike reservations but you can reserve a spot up until 10 minutes before the service departs.

Any information on how they're reserved? If it's at a ticket office, they may have to allow a lot more than 10 minutes.

 

[Chester1]

Looking at the off peak times for Piccadilly north bound makes me think the revised timetable could have been worse! It will be interesting to see how reliable it is and how well Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14 cope, the information point, waiting rooms, disused toilet and disused retail unit are currently being removed to provide more standing space. Apparently small waiting rooms will be installed later in the year, I presume glass pods!

XX:01 - Preston (DMU via Bolton)
XX:05 - Middlesbrough (TPE)
XX:09 - Lime Street (Northern - fast DMU via Warrington Central)
XX:18 - Wigan Northwestern (DMU via Bolton)
XX:22 - Lime Street (Northern - all stops EMU via Chat Moss)
XX:26 - Edinburgh/Glasgow (TPE)
XX:31 - Blackpool North (Northern - DMU via Bolton)
XX:35 - Newcastle (TPE)
XX:38 - Lime Street (EMT)
XX:47 - Blackpool North (Northern - EMU via Wigan Northwestern)
XX:52 - Llandudno (ATW)

Starting at Oxford Road:

XX:15 and XX:46 - Lime Street (Northern - DMU slow via Warrington Central)

Edited with correction

 

[skifans]

I'll be very annoyed if Northern do make cycle reservations compulsory. I'm slightly annoyed at tpe but at least they mostly stop at large station's ticket offices where a reservation can be made. However, Northern serve hundreds of sheafs in the backend of nowhere. Sure a reservation can be made 10 minutes before but how are you going to do it? You could phone customer services but you'd still be on hold when your train leaves.

Really, in my view this is only acceptable if Northern create a system where reservations can be made automatically online and through their app, there would need to be some system to make sure someone doesn't go and reserve a space on every train, while still allowing people flexible tickets - I'm not saying it's impossible, but I have no idea how that could be achieved (ideas?). But even these still is poor, many of their stations along the Hope Valley (and I'm sure elsewhere) don't have phone signal. And increasing amount of these have WiFi though.

Random question, are they any routes at the moment where cycle reservations are cumposary bit seat reservations aren't available? Or does anyone know if Northern also plan on introduction seating reservations on all their trains as well?

 

[BMIFlyer]

Looking at the off peak times for Piccadilly north bound makes me think the revised timetable could have been worse! It will be interesting to see how reliable it is and how well Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14 cope, the information point, waiting rooms, disused toilet and disused retail unit are currently being removed to provide more standing space. Apparently small waiting rooms will be installed later in the year, I presume glass pods!

XX:01 - Preston (DMU via Bolton)
XX:05 - Middlesbrough (TPE)
XX:09 - Lime Street (Northern - fast DMU via Warrington Central)
XX:18 - Wigan Northwestern (DMU via Bolton)
XX:22 - Lime Street (Northern - all stops EMU via Chat Moss)
XX:31 - Blackpool North (Northern - DMU via Bolton)
XX:35 - Newcastle (TPE)
XX:38 - Lime Street (EMT)
XX:47 - Blackpool North (Northern - EMU via Wigan Northwestern)
XX:52 - Llandudno (ATW)

Starting at Oxford Road:

XX:15 and XX:46 - Lime Street (Northern - DMU slow via Warrington Central)

xx:26 - TPE to Scotland - which then overtakes the xx:22 Northern at Oxford Road.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Could the Oxford Road stops be reintroduced prior to December if the wiring is done before then?

Doubt it. One of the additional reasons for losing the stop at MCO is due to the 8 car trains not fitting on the platform and the resulting issues this causes when boarding Northbound services.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I don't have an issue with compulsory reservations on very busy trains with little room, however there does need to be some flexibility / discretion shown when there is plenty of space available, as it's simply not always possible to plan in advance. No doubt this is what would happen most of the time in the real world anyway, but it does run the risk of an arsey conductor choosing to be awkward because they can.

I'd much rather cycle users used the provided station bike racks and didn't take bikes on board. Causes no end of problems in the rush hour based on the amount of guards reporting problems.

Someone was expressing concern to me today that they'd heard that Northern was moving to compulsory cycle reservations. Does anyone know whether there is any truth in this?

Had heard a whisper. Supposedly it will become a nationwide policy by 2020, which will be pleasing if so.

 

[Mathew S]

Or does anyone know if Northern also plan on introduction seating reservations on all their trains as well?

There is a version (a very, very draft version) of an upcoming Northern timetable which shows some services as reservable. I had put it down to an error in the data the timetable is generated from but, of course, it may not be.

 

[BMIFlyer]

There is a version (a very, very draft version) of an upcoming Northern timetable which shows some services as reservable. I had put it down to an error in the data the timetable is generated from but, of course, it may not be.

Northern Connect will included seat reservable services. Or so I am to believe.