Would that be a new appropriate ticket, like if one were to join the wrong train with an Advance ticket, or a new ticket with treatment as if you had joined the train without a ticket, like if one were to forget one's railcard, which could be a penalty fare where applicable, or a new 'full' Anytime ticket with no other discounts offered (or, of course, a discretionary excess, a discretionary off-peak ticket, or being let off, and anything in between, depending on who checks your ticket, if anyone!)?
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Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions
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Would that be a new appropriate ticket, like if one were to join the wrong train with an Advance ticket, or a new ticket with treatment as if you had joined the train without a ticket, like if one were to forget one's railcard, which could be a penalty fare where applicable, or a new 'full' Anytime ticket with no other discounts offered (or, of course, a discretionary excess, a discretionary off-peak ticket, or being let off, and anything in between, depending on who checks your ticket, if anyone!)?
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It depends on whether the view is taken that Condition 12 does apply, but as the particular ticket can't be excessed the new ticket is to the appropriate fare, or alternatively the view could be taken that it comes under the category of "some types of discounted tickets" (what?!) and therefore a new ticket be charged at the full rate as per Condition 2.
Obviously I would argue for the former interpretation, however others may disagree. Sadly the NRCoC is full of these ridiculous undefined caveats that, in some cases, potentially gives Train Companies carte blanche to trample over our rights in a way that probably wasn't intended, but what can we do without an effective Regulator or Ombudsman?!
Obviously I would argue for the former interpretation, however others may disagree. Sadly the NRCoC is full of these ridiculous undefined caveats that, in some cases, potentially gives Train Companies carte blanche to trample over our rights in a way that probably wasn't intended, but what can we do without an effective Regulator or Ombudsman?!
noddingdonkey
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I can imagine TPE and the InterCity operators being really impressed with this. Passengers who would normally take a Huddersfield-Wakefield Northern service going TPE to Leeds and East Coast to Wakey won't help TPE's overcrowding issues.
Why will they do that?
It's not clear (to me) if the Leeds - Wakefield ticket will be affected by this, but an off-peak Huddersfield - Wakefield via Leeds is more expensive than a peak Huddersfield - Wakefield not via Leeds.
noddingdonkey
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A Day Rover would still be valid on the route via Leeds on TPE/EC though.
hairyhandedfool
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Unless a new single ticket, for the journey being made, is cheaper. GM Rail Ranger is £5, Wayfarer is £11, that means a single would have to be £6.10 before the excess is cheaper. If that were the case we do get into a bit of sticky ground, but given that Bolton-Stockport (rte Metrolink Ctlz) and Urmston-Castleton (rte Metrolink Ctlz) are £5.50 Anytime Day Single, that is going to be a small number of people.
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Wakefield-Huddersfield Route: Leeds is set by West Yorkshire PTE so will be affected by the new restrictions.
That's really not clear at this stage. I'd be very surprised if Day Rovers are valid on some rail companies and not others at certain times.. If they are, people are going to get very confused. Especially if they're only valid on the "premium" and "express" trains.
That depends on how the restriction is worded. It does appear from the Metro website that the restriction on DayRovers may only apply on Northern, but until we actually see it...
Is anyone panic buying DayRovers on the existing scratch card stock from newsagents? The current T&Cs apply obviously, and some of them are dated up to 2016. I have heard that demand for them is rather high, and will only increase as the restrictions get more publicity. See Scratch-off West Yorkshire Day Rover - Conditions of Use
RochdalePioneers
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It sounds like the cheapest and indeed fairest way for passengers to swallow this change is to buy their usual off peak return and simply ask for an excess to the peak fare in one direction. I take it that (a) Northern will widely advise passengers that this is the cheapest fair available and (b) will ensure that conductors issue these without problem?
What a shame it would be if Northern grippers found themselves drowning in issuance of excesses following this change. What are the staff and back office costs in issuing swathes of excesses?
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What a shame it would be if Northern grippers found themselves drowning in issuance of excesses following this change. What are the staff and back office costs in issuing swathes of excesses?
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Won't happen. People buying return tickets in the morning peak, who couldn't possibly start their return journey before the morning peak ended have always been sold an Anytime Return not an Off-Peak Day Return and an outward excess.
No; it's the full ticket that must be excessed.
See our Fares Guide, 4.2.4 Excess: change of ticket type
Assuming you mean fare, can you excess to peak in just one direction?
I'm likely to buy an off-peak and excess it if I return during the peak. That's likely to use up a lor of staff time if a lot of people do it - and of course can't be done at TVMs so many people are likely to not be able to. It doesn't seem fair for them to have to pay for the peak fare on the off-chance they might need it.
What's annoying now is it won't be clear from the start of my journey if I'm better off getting a day rover - the best thing about these is the freedom to change my plans.
hairyhandedfool
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This would be the same as buying the "peak fare" in the first place......
a) Retail staff should enquire what time the passenger is returning to enable them to offer the best fare for the journey being made. If it was a direct request for the ticket type, the staff should make sure the passenger knows the restrictions have changed (though they don't have to because it was a specific request).
b) Most guards don't have a problem issuing Excess Fares AFAIK.
I don't think it would bother them any more than Off-Peak tickets being used too early at the moment.
The actual cost of issuing them? Probably just the cost of the tickets themselves. Staff will already be there with the machines, tickets are laser printed so no ink to use up. Automatic processes to spread the revenue from the excess are already in place.
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No, the whole ticket has to be changed.
Scrapy,
The reason I thought that travelling from Poynton to Piccadilly as part of a return journey at a price of £5.90 for the return trip is as follows:
1. I went to National Rail Enquiries web-site and put in the following: Poynton to Manchester Piccadilly. Outward Journey Leaving 8/9/14 at 1700. Return Journey Leaving 8/9/14 at 2200.
2. This brings up direct trains for the outward journey at 1731, 1831, 1931 and 2031 priced at £5.90. It also brings up at journey at 1738 via Macclesfield but this is unpriced.
3. Against the 1731 departure is a yellow box headed "Cheapest Fare" which shows the £5.90 fare and includes a symbol looking like two intersecting rounded rectangles with the wording "Other off-peak trains you can travel on with this ticket". Click this symbol.
4. A box appears headed "Your trains and tickets summary" "Other off peak trains you can travel on with this ticket". It then quotes Poynton Manchester Piccadilly and £5.90 Off-peak. Listed below are a range of journey options including 1738 Poynton to Piccadilly with 1 Change.
5. Move the cursor to the number 1 (as in 1 Change) and change information will appear showing a connection at Macclesfield.
That is why National Rail Enquiries has led me to believe that travel via Macclesfield is in order on a range of departures from Poynton at the off-peak return fare of £5.90. The listed journeys appear to be those offering a time advantage over waiting for the next direct train.
Please explain why I am wrong. Is it a glitch in the system? I doubt that a court would not uphold my right to accept this "encouragement" to travel via Macclesfield from the official web-site.
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I suspect it will tie up a lot of time for guards on busy lines and result in more fares being missed entirely.
Thanks for confirming that.
hairyhandedfool
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Possibly, but that is not quantifiable.
Yesterday I asked if anyone could explain why the new restriction applied to places such as Buxton but not to places such as Poynton. What is the logic? Could I encourage a response as I am genuinely perplexed.
For what it may be worth my take on this goes as follows. A fare raising policy change is introduced. It is not universally applied to the market place (in this case to the Northern network). What has normally happened is that some local interest group has made funds available (that is paid a subsidy) to persuade the seller not to raise prices. As the exemptions largely follow local authority boundaries the presumption is that authorities such as East Cheshire and Lancashire have made a payment to Northern so that their residents are exempt from the impact of this change in rules, whilst authorities in the Metropolitan areas have made no such payment.
If this is the case then fair enough. However, without evidence, I do not accept that any such payments have been made and, indeed, it would be strange if all non-Metropolitan areas had made such payments and none of the Metropolitan areas had done so.
Given the "political map" of the North, the impending election, and the high probability of interaction between the Government and Northern Rail in this issue, it feels very much a partisan action (be it through accident or otherwise). Those who bear the pain are those in the less Conservative Metropolitan areas and vice versa.
It would be interesting to know if legal challenge against such an abuse of power could be mounted. Of course we may all like the more even-handed Plan B even less!
For what it may be worth my take on this goes as follows. A fare raising policy change is introduced. It is not universally applied to the market place (in this case to the Northern network). What has normally happened is that some local interest group has made funds available (that is paid a subsidy) to persuade the seller not to raise prices. As the exemptions largely follow local authority boundaries the presumption is that authorities such as East Cheshire and Lancashire have made a payment to Northern so that their residents are exempt from the impact of this change in rules, whilst authorities in the Metropolitan areas have made no such payment.
If this is the case then fair enough. However, without evidence, I do not accept that any such payments have been made and, indeed, it would be strange if all non-Metropolitan areas had made such payments and none of the Metropolitan areas had done so.
Given the "political map" of the North, the impending election, and the high probability of interaction between the Government and Northern Rail in this issue, it feels very much a partisan action (be it through accident or otherwise). Those who bear the pain are those in the less Conservative Metropolitan areas and vice versa.
It would be interesting to know if legal challenge against such an abuse of power could be mounted. Of course we may all like the more even-handed Plan B even less!
I have to say, the silence from Leeds City Council and the local MP's on this perfidy has been deafening. So much so that I wonder whether they've even noticed. It would be nice if they created some problems for the London Government about it.
Xenophon PCDGS
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I will endeavour to assist in terms of the sitting MP in both areas.
Poynton, like my own area of Prestbury, has a Conservative MP for Macclesfield (David Rutley)
Buxton has a Conservative MP for High Peak (Andrew Bingham)
Lots of people who work in revenue in the Manchester area are going to learn how to do excesses next month then! Or, maybe - worse - they aren't
I think it more likely to be the latter
This is the way it happens on the railway. A cutoff point has to exist somewhere.
If Northern applied the restriction to all fares they price, it would cause the cutoff point to move to whatever was the first station where another operator set the fare.
On the contrary; in general fares in the 'Metropolitan' (PTE) areas are generally much lower. Therefore, it is these fares which have the evening peak restrictions applied, to even things up a bit, I guess,.
In some cases, it may be cheaper to buy an Off Peak fare from the last station outside the 'PTE' area than the first station inside the area. However, the differences will not be huge, and on some lines it won't even be any cheaper.
It might be an "abuse of power" with regards to the restrictions on the DayRover and Ranger tickets, without knowing the history of those products and the rules regarding on them, I couldn't say.
But it's arguably not an "abuse of power" to introduce evening peak restrictions on Off Peak Day tickets. Many operators already do this! We can say we don't like it, we can say we don't think it'll raise them much money. We can point out the hassle it will cause for Guards and how confusing it will be for passengers. But they are allowed to do it; it's not an abuse of their powers.
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If they choose not to issue a low value excess fare, because it's not worth the hassle for 30p or 70p or whatever, that's not the customers problem!I think it more likely to be the latter
Saying that someone is committing an abuse of power is not saying that the people who made a decision did not have the power to do so. It is saying that it is someones opinion that they abused that power to do so to the detriment of others.
wbbminerals
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In the statement from Metro the West Yorkshire Combined Authority don't seem to actually care about the new restrictions. Shouldn't they be fighting for a better deal for passengers in West Yorks?
I agree. I believe the sticking point is anyone who then tries to issue a new Anytime Single instead!
Indeed. Nor is it the customers problem if they refuse to purchase Anytime tickets from the TVM at 4 in the afternoon, opting for Off-Peak tickets in protest at the new rules, knowing the worst that can happen is an excess to the Anytime fare
In that case, I'd take a photo of the original and replacement ticket, and email a letter to Customer Services. An inadequate response should be followed up with a letter to Passenger Focus.
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If the passenger is believed to be deliberately avoiding payment, rather than merely being confused or having a change of travel plans, the details could be recorded for the prosecutions department to consider whether or not to take the matter forward.Indeed. Nor is it the customers problem if they refuse to purchase Anytime tickets from the TVM at 4 in the afternoon, opting for Off-Peak tickets in protest at the new rules, knowing the worst that can happen is an excess to the Anytime fare
Northern will, however, implement a "discretionary day" if the people taking part in the protest are of pensionable age. They will not implement that if the protesters are your age, and will opt for a more heavy handed approach. Guaranteed.
I strongly advise that you don't suggest any such protest, if the protesters are younger than pensionable age!
Indeed. Nor is it the customers problem if they refuse to purchase Anytime tickets from the TVM at 4 in the afternoon, opting for Off-Peak tickets in protest at the new rules, knowing the worst that can happen is an excess to the Anytime fare
I totally agree. It should also be made very clear in big writing what the current rules are at any given station. I personally don't think it is clear enough. People on the forums often compare buying train tickets with buying goods in a supermarket and fair enough. On the down side it is not often clear at a railway station how much I should have paid whereas in a supermarket it is normally (I stress normally) clear how much my tin of beans costs.
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