Northern TVMs not set up to issue 'Promise to Pay'?

[toffeedanish]

At Hebden Bridge, as far as I can tell, the ticket vending machines are not set up to issue 'Promise to Pay' (P2P) unlike other local stations that I use. This is at all times, whether the ticket office is open or not.

This evening the ticket office was (probably temporarily on this occasion) closed. On the train I had an argument with the conductor. He stated that he could only issue a discounted ticket (we were wanting a Two-Together, Single) if I could produce a P2P, as he has to account for every discounted ticket sold. I stated that at Hebden Bridge, unlike other the majority of other stations, this was not possible. He said that this was not true. I stated that there is no P2P icon on the first screen. He said that that there is a way to obtain one even if the icon is not there. I said that there isn't. Eventually and reluctantly he sold me the desired tickets. His suggestion was to make a complaint to Northern if I wasn't happy, but that if I can't obtain a ticket or a P2P I cannot board a train without being liable to pay for an undiscounted ticket.

Can anybody tell me 1) whether it is possible to get P2P from all Northern TVMs in Penalty Fare areas? 2) if it is actually possible to get a P2P out of the machine at Hebden Bridge 3) If it is actually possible to get a P2P from a machine which is not showing the P2P icon on the main screen?

Many thanks for any clarifications given.

 

[Bungle965]

I had the same problem a couple of months ago where by I could not obtain a promise to pay notice despite the booking office being being closed. I attempted to contract Northern via Twitter but they either didn't see or simply ignored me.
I will be if I got dig out the video where it shows that the machine would not offer the promise to pay notice.
Sam

 

[_toommm_]

At Hebden Bridge, as far as I can tell, the ticket vending machines are not set up to issue 'Promise to Pay' (P2P) unlike other local stations that I use. This is at all times, whether the ticket office is open or not.

This evening the ticket office was (probably temporarily on this occasion) closed. On the train I had an argument with the conductor. He stated that he could only issue a discounted ticket (we were wanting a Two-Together, Single) if I could produce a P2P, as he has to account for every discounted ticket sold. I stated that at Hebden Bridge, unlike other the majority of other stations, this was not possible. He said that this was not true. I stated that there is no P2P icon on the first screen. He said that that there is a way to obtain one even if the icon is not there. I said that there isn't. Eventually and reluctantly he sold me the desired tickets. His suggestion was to make a complaint to Northern if I wasn't happy, but that if I can't obtain a ticket or a P2P I cannot board a train without being liable to pay for an undiscounted ticket.

Can anybody tell me 1) whether it is possible to get P2P from all Northern TVMs in Penalty Fare areas? 2) if it is actually possible to get a P2P out of the machine at Hebden Bridge 3) If it is actually possible to get a P2P from a machine which is not showing the P2P icon on the main screen?

Many thanks for any clarifications given.

As long as the penalty fare scheme is currently running - denoted by the yellow warning page on the TVM then it is possible. The button on the home screen isn't needed to be able to get a P2P as it's done when you're going to 'purchase' the ticket.

From what I could see of the TVMs at Hebden when I passed through it today there was a yellow notice so theoretically you can buy one there.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

At Hebden Bridge, as far as I can tell, the ticket vending machines are not set up to issue 'Promise to Pay' (P2P) unlike other local stations that I use. This is at all times, whether the ticket office is open or not.

This evening the ticket office was (probably temporarily on this occasion) closed. On the train I had an argument with the conductor. He stated that he could only issue a discounted ticket (we were wanting a Two-Together, Single) if I could produce a P2P, as he has to account for every discounted ticket sold. I stated that at Hebden Bridge, unlike other the majority of other stations, this was not possible. He said that this was not true. I stated that there is no P2P icon on the first screen. He said that that there is a way to obtain one even if the icon is not there. I said that there isn't. Eventually and reluctantly he sold me the desired tickets. His suggestion was to make a complaint to Northern if I wasn't happy, but that if I can't obtain a ticket or a P2P I cannot board a train without being liable to pay for an undiscounted ticket.

Can anybody tell me 1) whether it is possible to get P2P from all Northern TVMs in Penalty Fare areas? 2) if it is actually possible to get a P2P out of the machine at Hebden Bridge 3) If it is actually possible to get a P2P from a machine which is not showing the P2P icon on the main screen?

Many thanks for any clarifications given.

"Promise to Pay" notices have no official legal standing, and thus an alleged "requirement" to obtain such a notice is not enforceable. If you were entitled to buy a ticket onboard then you were entitled to do so without such a notice. If you weren't entitled to buy onboard, then having a notice doesn't change that - other than insofar as it may be Northern's unofficial policy to allow people who would ordinarily be liable to pay the full undiscounted fare, to obtain a discounted fare if they can produce a notice.

In order to determine whether or not you should have bought your ticket before travel - did the ticket machine at Hebden Bridge have facilities to sell you the tickets you wanted, using the payment method you intended to use? I have used Hebden Bridge before but in all cases already had my ticket before arriving at the station, and thus didn't have reason to use the ticket machines.

 

[robbeech]

So from what I can gather the machines used to spit them out with a simple button press but due to idiots emptying them they stopped this.

The second variation of this was where you had to follow the full procedure of buying the ticket you wanted and right st the very end you could say ‘actually i want to pay cash’ and it would then give you a promise to pay.

I’m led to believe that the most recent variation is to have the button on the screen.

I believe there is some timed integration with a ticket office opening hours so that when it is supposed to be closed you are able to obtain a promise to pay. When it is supposed to be open however this option disappears. I’m not sure if you can still go through the full process and choose cash at the end like you had to do before.
Of course all this is fine until the ticket office closes early, this is common at Worksop and no doubt other places too.

The keeping a record of discounted tickets thing I’m 99% sure is just drivel, it’s worth asking Northern about this.

The whole concept of promise to pay is CURRENTLY unenforceable as it is not mentioned in the penalty fare regulations. There is however a mention of it as a concept in the guidelines but the actual regulations make no mention of it. I assume this will be changing in a future update so be advised about this.

 

[Clip]

I believe you can still go through the process of trying to purchase a ticket when the button isnt showing and when you come to the end you select 'I dont have a payment card' and this should issue a P2P - there is a picture of one on the main Northern thread.

I would hesitate to follow the advice that these P2P are unenforceable as this is untried and tested advice - especially by those who propose it and wont test it our themselves- which could lead to the user getting themselves in a lot more bother that its worth - after all the scheme has been passed by the DfT I am assuming so I am assuming that they are happy with them giving you the opportunity to show that you intend to pay - a bit like a pertis does.

 

[toffeedanish]

As long as the penalty fare scheme is currently running - denoted by the yellow warning page on the TVM then it is possible. The button on the home screen isn't needed to be able to get a P2P as it's done when you're going to 'purchase' the ticket.

From what I could see of the TVMs at Hebden when I passed through it today there was a yellow notice so theoretically you can buy one there.

With respect, there has definitely been no big yellow penalty fare front page displayed at any time I have used the station (I am familiar with what it looks like from other local stations), and I do so almost daily at varying times.

I will speak to the ticket office staff member this evening if it is open.

 

[toffeedanish]

In order to determine whether or not you should have bought your ticket before travel - did the ticket machine at Hebden Bridge have facilities to sell you the tickets you wanted, using the payment method you intended to use?

No it didn't. I had cash for the trip. I usually pay at the office, or on the train. The TVM does not take cash or appear to offer a P2P. It's on the latter point that I had an argument with the guard, with him insisting it did, and that in this circumstance I should have one.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

No it didn't. I had cash for the trip. I usually pay at the office, or on the train. The TVM does not take cash or appear to offer a P2P. It's on the latter point that I had an argument with the guard, with him insisting it did, and that in this circumstance I should have one.

What a load of tosh. "Promise to Pay" notices simply have no legal effect in these circumstances - you were entitled to buy your ticket onboard the train regardless of whether or not the ticket machine offered such notices.

I wouldn't hold out much hope for Northern addressing this properly in their complaint response, however you now have recourse to the Rail Ombudsman if you are unhappy with the TOC's response.

 

[_toommm_]

With respect, there has definitely been no big yellow penalty fare front page displayed at any time I have used the station (I am familiar with what it looks like from other local stations), and I do so almost daily at varying times.

I will speak to the ticket office staff member this evening if it is open.

In which case you should have had no problem. Even though the onus is on them to prove you had any bad intentions (even though you didn't) it's always worth taking a photo if you can to cover your back.

Regardless, like others have said, it sounds like the P2P has no legal standing in a Penalty Fare environment - merely a Northern only thing that would have very little to no legal standing.

EDIT: Just pipped to the post by FTLO

 

[robbeech]

A complaint is definitely necessary here as this can lead to staff being reminded of the rules which helps everyone involved. It’s likely worthy of a social media post too. It’s not to show them up as a bad company but to alert them and anyone reading that this situation can occur and to help anyone else that may find themselves in the same situation in the future (or may have done so in the past).

 

[_toommm_]

Definitely no signs on the TVM at Hebden this morning, nor at most of the stations along the line (I don't think I noticed one until I got to Brighouse or Mirfield).

Should be a clear cut and shut case really in the OP's favour. If it's a station you frequent a lot or one that you will visit again sometime soon, make sure to take a photo or a video showing the option wasn't available.

 

[toffeedanish]

So this evening I feared the same issue: Ticket office closed, a full hour before the advertised time. Definitely no way of getting a P2P from the machine. I interrogated it for ages. Interestingly, on the final screen before payment it states the option of inserting cash. Clearly this thing is badly programmed.

No bothers on the train this time though (though as is common it was cancelled and I had to catch a later one).

Thank you for replies. I am satisfied that I am not going mad in my middle age, and that Northern staff need better training.

 

[robbeech]

You have to follow the cash option. It is monumentally stupid. You have to tell it you want to pay cash and then it says AHA!!!!! What you’ll be wanting is one if these completely unenforceable bits of card that we’ve wasted your time to obtain

 

[Puffing Devil]

What a load of tosh. "Promise to Pay" notices simply have no legal effect in these circumstances - you were entitled to buy your ticket onboard the train regardless of whether or not the ticket machine offered such notices.

I wouldn't hold out much hope for Northern addressing this properly in their complaint response, however you now have recourse to the Rail Ombudsman if you are unhappy with the TOC's response.

You have to follow the cash option. It is monumentally stupid. You have to tell it you want to pay cash and then it says AHA!!!!! What you’ll be wanting is one if these completely unenforceable bits of card that we’ve wasted your time to obtain

You may assert that the PTP has no legal standing. However, if a case comes to court under the Byelaws then it provides the defendant with a rock-solid defence - not that it would get there in the first place. Without the PTP any defendant has a substantially weaker case.

You may enjoy the thought experiment discussing the legal validity of a PTP, back in the Magistrates court you will find that a passenger prosecuted for not having a ticket and not getting a PTP (when available) with find themselves convicted.

 

[robbeech]

You may assert that the PTP has no legal standing. However, if a case comes to court under the Byelaws then it provides the defendant with a rock-solid defence - not that it would get there in the first place. Without the PTP any defendant has a substantially weaker case.

You may enjoy the thought experiment discussing the legal validity of a PTP, back in the Magistrates court you will find that a passenger prosecuted for not having a ticket and not getting a PTP (when available) with find themselves convicted.

Not having a ticket generally is very different to not having a ticket as they were unable to purchase one.

I’m assuming that the Promise to Pay will become part of the regulations at the next update anyway so this stupidness will go away and they’ll become enforceable.

 

[_toommm_]

You have to follow the cash option. It is monumentally stupid. You have to tell it you want to pay cash and then it says AHA!!!!! What you’ll be wanting is one if these completely unenforceable bits of card that we’ve wasted your time to obtain

Certainly in the last update of the TVMs they would only issue the P2P if the machine thought it was in a PF area I.e. if it had the yellow warning poster on the screen.

The machine clearly doesn't, along with the one at Sowerby Bridge, so that may be a factor as to why the OP struggled to get a P2P. I wondered whether it was time related but I passed through at 6:15 this morning and there was still no P2P facility.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

You may assert that the PTP has no legal standing. However, if a case comes to court under the Byelaws then it provides the defendant with a rock-solid defence - not that it would get there in the first place. Without the PTP any defendant has a substantially weaker case.

You may enjoy the thought experiment discussing the legal validity of a PTP, back in the Magistrates court you will find that a passenger prosecuted for not having a ticket and not getting a PTP (when available) with find themselves convicted.

There already is a rock solid defence to a Byelaws prosecution - the fact that there are no suitable ticketing facilities if you want to pay by cash and the TVM only takes card.

To suggest otherwise is just plain wrong.

 

[Puffing Devil]

There already is a rock solid defence to a Byelaws prosecution - the fact that there are no suitable ticketing facilities if you want to pay by cash and the TVM only takes card.

To suggest otherwise is just plain wrong.

That is a defence, which can easily be supported by a PTP from a machine. Without a PTP the passenger lays themselves open to a Regulation of Railways act charge for intent to avoid the fare, by passing a working a machine and failing to show an intent to pay.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That is a defence, which can easily be supported by a PTP from a machine. Without a PTP the passenger lays themselves open to a Regulation of Railways act charge for intent to avoid the fare, by passing a working a machine and failing to show an intent to pay.

An interesting take, but not accurate at all. If a passenger knows that a machine does not accept his (acceptable) payment method, why exactly would he bother wasting his time using it? I certainly wouldn't. Failing to waste your time is nowhere near intent to avoid payment, when there is no payment achieved by getting a PTP (unlike a Permit to Travel).

People seem to take the core elements of the Corbyn case, take them totally out of context, and expect them still to hold up as good law. Corbyn was a case where the passenger had, on a regular basis, been in the habit of failing to use ticketing facilities at his origin to buy the correct ticket, and then also effectively self-filling an Unpaid Fares Notice at his destination. He admitted hoping that LRT would not pursue him for the relatively small amount of the excess each time. Without this admission, and without the regularity of failing to use the ticketing facilities to buy the ticket he needed (which it actually sold), 'intent to avoid payment' would not exist.

This situation is discernible from Corbyn in so many different ways. There aren't proper ticketing facilities at the origin to begin with. The passengers don't just ask for a UFN, they pay their fare onboard (or explicitly offer to do so, if they are encountered by RPIs). And they are nowhere near intending to avoid payment in terms of their mental intentions, let alone admitting such. The only intent they have is to not waste their time interacting with a useless machine.

I wonder just how many people who claim that 'intent to avoid payment' is shown by failing to use ticketing facilities have actually read through the entirety of the Corbyn judgement, so that they know the ways in which the judgement was qualified...

 

[Puffing Devil]

An interesting take, but not accurate at all. If a passenger knows that a machine does not accept his (acceptable) payment method, why exactly would he bother wasting his time using it? I certainly wouldn't. Failing to waste your time is nowhere near intent to avoid payment, when there is no payment achieved by getting a PTP (unlike a Permit to Travel)

AFAIK there has been no precedent set for the failure to get a PTP in a very well publicised PF zone. You're welcome to go ahead and try and set one.

 

[rs101]

AFAIK there has been no precedent set for the failure to get a PTP in a very well publicised PF zone. You're welcome to go ahead and try and set one.

Are there any instructions displayed anywhere on/near the machine telling users they must get a PTP if they want to pay with cash? Otherwise, I'd say expecting them to know that, on a machine which obviously doesn't take cash, they should attempt to purchase a ticket and select the cash option in order to get one.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

AFAIK there has been no precedent set for the failure to get a PTP in a very well publicised PF zone. You're welcome to go ahead and try and set one.

No, there is no precedent that it is not intent to avoid payment of the fare. And I don't think there ever will be - unless a TOC makes a monumental mistake in deciding to go for a RoRA prosecution in such cases, and the passenger they prosecute has the money and the inclination to fight it all the way.

 

[Puffing Devil]

No, there is no precedent that it is not intent to avoid payment of the fare. And I don't think there ever will be - unless a TOC makes a monumental mistake in deciding to go for a RoRA prosecution in such cases, and the passenger they prosecute has the money and the inclination to fight it all the way.

That is your opinion, I'm sure the TOC would get another opinion from counsel and I am confident it would be different.

The chances of finding an honest passenger caught out in this way and deciding to run a case is very small and continues to keep this discussion at a theoretical level.

The advice for anyone wanting a quiet life in a PF zone is to get a PTP from a machine if you want to pay by cash or your ticket is unavailable, or buy a ticket using a card.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Are there any instructions displayed anywhere on/near the machine telling users they must get a PTP if they want to pay with cash?

Yes. If the user tries to buy a ticket with cash, it will issue a PTP.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That is your opinion, I'm sure the TOC would get another opinion from counsel and I am confident it would be different.

The chances of finding an honest passenger caught out in this way and deciding to run a case is very small and continues to keep this discussion at a theoretical level.

The advice for anyone wanting a quiet life in a PF zone is to get a PTP from a machine if you want to pay by cash or your ticket is unavailable, or buy a ticket using a card.

Well the answer often differs between the most hassle-free option, and the option which involves exercising your rights but which may involve more hassle.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes. If the user tries to buy a ticket with cash, it will issue a PTP.

Indeed, but you have to get over the initial put-off when the passenger sees there isn't even a cash slot on the machine. Some wouldn't even try.

 

[toffeedanish]

For clarity: After going through the ticket buying process the last instruction is 'insert cash or present card'. I'm sorry if I gave the impression this was a choice between the two. Obviously you can't insert cash. It will not issue a PTP. This differs from all of the other TVMs I use at other (unmanned) Northern stations.

On the previous occasions when I have picked up a PTP from other stations the conductor collected the PTPs from me on the train as part of ticket issuing. This leads me to believe that they need to physically account for discounted tickets issued. If so I can understand the situation they are in.

I do resent the implication of being branded a liar by staff contradicting my experience on the platform by saying that a PTP was available when it very definitely isn't.

 

[toffeedanish]

I will always buy a ticket at the office if it is open. I am happy with the system of PTP. I am happy to use some time to collect one if needed. I understand the viewpoint that legally they shouldn't be needed but I make no comment on that either way.

What I am failing to do is convince Northern on train staff that sometimes it is not always possible to pick up a PTP, which I now am certain is the case, despite some responses here.

 

[najaB]

An interesting take, but not accurate at all. If a passenger knows that a machine does not accept his (acceptable) payment method, why exactly would he bother wasting his time using it?

Because that is how you obtain a PtP slip.