Not having a valid ticket upon my person...and yet I did.

[missinggun]

Hello, I was wondering if you could help me out...

On Saturday morning I was returning home from a night out in London. I was caught for supposedly not having a valid ticket upon on my person but I knew that I had bought one. They tried to issue me with a penalty fare but I refused. To begin with I refused to give my details/sign but eventually did after having spoken to my mother.

After the incident I had a friend pick me up and we discovered amongst my old train tickets the correct valid train ticket and the receipt from my payment on card.

On the penalty fare slip it states a charge of £39 but I am under the impression that this is not actually double the single fare from London Paddington to Reading.

It also states that I had 'no ticket' as the reason for the penalty.

Any help about how to proceed would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Zoe]

On the penalty fare slip it states a charge of £39 but I am under the impression that this is not actually double the single fare from London Paddington to Reading.

That is correct, the Standard Anytime Day Single from Paddington to Reading is £19.50. Twice this is £39.

 

[mumrar]

Hello, I was wondering if you could help me out...

On Saturday morning I was returning home from a night out in London. I was caught for supposedly not having a valid ticket upon on my person but I knew that I had bought one. They tried to issue me with a penalty fare but I refused. To begin with I refused to give my details/sign but eventually did after having spoken to my mother.

After the incident I had a friend pick me up and we discovered amongst my old train tickets the correct valid train ticket and the receipt from my payment on card.

On the penalty fare slip it states a charge of £39 but I am under the impression that this is not actually double the single fare from London Paddington to Reading.

It also states that I had 'no ticket' as the reason for the penalty.

Any help about how to proceed would be greatly appreciated.

If, when you are asked for a ticket, you are unable to produce a valid ticket, then you are treated as though no ticket is held. That's why the notice says 'no ticket'.

What time/date were you travelling, what ticket did you laterr find with your friend and was it a single, or outward or return portion of a ticket.

Need more information to give you an accurate answer.

 

[missinggun]

It was the return portion of the tickets I bought at Reading train station - '2 part return' and the receipt from the ticket machine, as I paid by card.
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If, when you are asked for a ticket, you are unable to produce a valid ticket, then you are treated as though no ticket is held. That's why the notice says 'no ticket'.

What time/date were you travelling, what ticket did you laterr find with your friend and was it a single, or outward or return portion of a ticket.

Need more information to give you an accurate answer.

It was the return portion of the tickets I bought at Reading train station - '2 part return' and the receipt from the ticket machine, as I paid by card.

 

[mumrar]

It was the return portion of the tickets I bought at Reading train station - '2 part return' and the receipt from the ticket machine, as I paid by card.

And what ticket did you buy? Ticket type, date of issue, date of outward travel and return travel - all of these things are relevant to answering your query.

 

[missinggun]

And what ticket did you buy? Ticket type, date of issue, date of outward travel and return travel - all of these things are relevant to answering your query.

STD off-peak return, issued 25th of February, printed at 22:30, valid until 24th of March. I traveled after 23:00 to London Paddington and got back to Reading around 6am.

 

[Flamingo]

Just seen reply.

You can always appeal, but the relevant CoC states: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

22. Inspection of tickets
You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand
over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or other form of
personal identification in accordance with Condition 15. If you do not, you will be treated
as having joined a train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will
apply. If an Electronic Ticket cannot be displayed, you will be treated as if you were unable
to hand over for inspection a valid ticket

If you couldn't find it at the time of inspection then they were right to issue a PF or sell a new ticket. Send it all off (keep photocopies) and see what they say.

 

[yorkie]

I've no idea what the chances of success are, however I would urge you to photocopy the tickets before sending them, send the originals with a letter, consider using recorded delivery, and send it ASAP. Send it to wherever you are asked, which is probably some debt collection company, but enclose a copy of the letter and a photocopy of the tickets additionally to FGW. If they do not hear from you within a certain period they will add an 'admin fee' and if you still don't pay after a certain time they may prosecute. So don't delay, act fast.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm not sure about PF's but unpaid fare notices must be either paid or appealed with it reaching FGW within 10 days of issue before it becomes liable for admin fees.

And they do prosecute for non-payment, I've been involved in them.

 

[island]

I think your chances are very low on this one. For all they know you had given the ticket to someone else who had shown it for the inspection. If you had been able to come up with the ticket before getting off the train or leaving Reading station you might have had some luck, but I suspect you are on to a loser here. Were it me I would pay the £39 and chalk it up to experience.

 

[RJ]

Hello, I was wondering if you could help me out...

On Saturday morning I was returning home from a night out in London. I was caught for supposedly not having a valid ticket upon on my person but I knew that I had bought one. They tried to issue me with a penalty fare but I refused. To begin with I refused to give my details/sign but eventually did after having spoken to my mother.

After the incident I had a friend pick me up and we discovered amongst my old train tickets the correct valid train ticket and the receipt from my payment on card.

On the penalty fare slip it states a charge of £39 but I am under the impression that this is not actually double the single fare from London Paddington to Reading.

It also states that I had 'no ticket' as the reason for the penalty.

Any help about how to proceed would be greatly appreciated.

You were in breach of Byelaw 18(2) and the National Rail CoC condition 22 when you failed to show a ticket when required to do so by an authorised staff member. You can try appealing but unless the TOC has done something wrong, there's no guarantee of success.

 

[transportphoto]

Could LM/CH change tack if they have made a mistake (for example the PF collector was not authorised for LM) and decide to prosecute for bylaw 18(2) Failing to produce valid ticket?

Sorry I know this is slightly off topic but I am interested.

 

[missinggun]

I think your chances are very low on this one. For all they know you had given the ticket to someone else who had shown it for the inspection. If you had been able to come up with the ticket before getting off the train or leaving Reading station you might have had some luck, but I suspect you are on to a loser here. Were it me I would pay the £39 and chalk it up to experience.

Even with the ticket receipt that is linked to my debit card?

 

[Flamingo]

Send off the appeal, but have the £39 to hand. Let us know what happens.

 

[yorkie]

Even with the ticket receipt that is linked to my debit card?

That doesn't give any indication as to who used the ticket.

You are quite entitled to purchase a ticket for anyone.

 

[island]

Yes. Again, their presumption will be that you handed one or both parts of the ticket off to someone else who used it and managed to get out of Reading station without having the ticket swallowed by the gates somehow and then handed it back to you.

 

[missinggun]

I think your chances are very low on this one. For all they know you had given the ticket to someone else who had shown it for the inspection. If you had been able to come up with the ticket before getting off the train or leaving Reading station you might have had some luck, but I suspect you are on to a loser here. Were it me I would pay the £39 and chalk it up to experience.

Furthermore, would they not have punched/written on the ticket if this had been the case?

 

[Zoe]

You are quite entitled to purchase a ticket for anyone.

I thought tickets were not transferrable.

 

[Flamingo]

I thought tickets were not transferrable.

If you use the outward portion of a ticket, the return should not be used by your friend.

You can buy tickets for use by someone else, though.
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Furthermore, would they not have punched/written on the ticket if this had been the case?

Not necessarily. If they had not been seen by a ticket inspector, for example.

 

[oversteer]

A few years back, on a NXEC service to Leeds, I bought an online ticket.

The ticket machine at Kings Cross failed to print at least one of the requisite vouchers (the seat reservation one) but I didn't notice (was used to three being printed, as per a daily train ticket) and I assumed that the printed online booking reference was what I needed to actually claim my seat.

Somewhere near Doncaster I had a run-in with the ticket inspector who said that as I did not have a valid seat reservation ticket I did not have a valid ticket and so would have to pay or "be removed from the train"

Had to pay £150 there and then and arrange for my return seat reservation ticket to be reprinted for collection at Leeds (which in fairness they did without fuss).

I wrote to NXEC complaining and they refunded me. Not sure if this is because they were wrong, or because it was a 'gesture of goodwill'.

So, whether you were right or wrong at the time, it's got to be worth writing in with photocopies of everything. If you can prove that you bought a valid ticket just before, then they may be lenient..

 

[jon0844]

As you failed to display, best just pay up and kick yourself for putting the ticket in a pocket you forgot about when asked to present it.

Best get a ticket wallet for the next time, or just keep it safe in your existing wallet and remind yourself that the ticket is worth the money printed on it (or indeed, much more if not having it would result in a penalty fare). Keep it as safe as you would your cash, cards, keys and mobile phone.

If you did appeal and have no record of any previous problems, you might get let off as a goodwill gesture, so I suppose there's no harm in trying. If nothing else, they might update their records so that this incident doesn't count against you in the future. Not that there will be a future, as you'll now look after those tickets all the more carefully, right.

 

[Mojo]

I thought tickets were not transferrable.

They're not transferrable, but buying a ticket with the intention of it being for someone else is not transferring the ticket.

 

[big_dirt]

Surely if paying up means that you accept liability unreservedly but appealing introduces the chance that you might be refunded and a failed appeal will bring you back to your current situation then the only logical thing to do is to appeal.

I personally think that you were in the wrong, it is unfortunate but thems is the rules. Nevertheless, if I were you I would appeal. If nothing else, it costs the train company money to process your appeal so you are getting a bit of value for your £39 and they get to keep less of it!

 

[Flamingo]

If nothing else, it costs the train company money to process your appeal so you are getting a bit of value for your £39 and they get to keep less of it!

That's a bit childish and silly :roll:

 

[big_dirt]

That's a bit childish and silly :roll:

While two wrongs don't make a right, it is good that a passenger is being a bit childish and silly instead of an RPI.

 

[Flamingo]

While two wrongs don't make a right, it is good that a passenger is being a bit childish and silly instead of an RPI.

Nice attitude.

Some posters on here make me wonder why I don't just give the maximum charge in every case of ticket irregularity that I come across. The commission I'm missing out on from on all those full opens would probably pay for the summer holidays.

 

[big_dirt]

You must admit that in an instance where you have bought a ticket in good faith, encounter a difficulty and your explanation is not accepted then taking it on the chin is not the easiest thing to do.

The bottom line is that it is the original poster's right to submit an appeal, regardless of why he sees fit to do that and if getting one over on the train company makes him feel better then at least he will get something from it.

And you are probably not giving out full fares when you don't have to because you are a normal decent guy, trying to help people out in the course of his work. Not unlike most people in most jobs.

 

[Flamingo]

They have the right to appeal - I suggested this to them in my first post, as they seemed to have a case to argue that an exception could be made as they had purchased a ticket and could prove so, even if after the fact.

Appealing in every case to clog the system up (as you were suggesting) is simply vindictive, and will probably result in the genuine being rejected along with the vexatious, thereby causing everybody to suffer.

 

[big_dirt]

I wouldn't suggest clogging up the system. I'd expect that the TOC or appeal body would cope with all appeals within their agreed SLA.

I do think though that if more people were encouraged to appeal their penalty fares, the TOCs might not be so quick to hand them out. That was not the reason why I suggested the appeal though.

My point was that if losing an appeal leaves you in the same boat you are in already but you have the potential to escape the penalty fare then you might as well appeal.

 

[Flamingo]

The point you are missing is that PF's are not handed out to people at random. They are givem to people who are unable to produce, when challenged, a valid ticket for their journey, or give a valid reason for not being in possession of a ticket or other authority to travel.

The OP has never claimed that the ticket was produced, just that they found it after the PF was issued. In that case they may be able to succeed with an appeal.

What would you suggest TOC's do? Only charge a basic ticket, so there is no incentive to buy a ticket, as if caught, there is no down-side? Or bypass the PF system and automatically send everybody forward for prosecution? That's the only other two options open.