Not PC on LM

[jamesst]

I've read some amusing things on here but that is probably the best yet.

Haha I second that!!

 

[edwin_m]

It may well be that members of a certain community are causing some sort of trouble. However this is not a reason to suggest that all members of that community are guilty of the same offence. To do so means "guilt by association" and is a slap in the face to law-abiding members of the same community.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

How did the 'witness' know to record it? It takes seconds to unlock phone, open recording app and press record surely he'd have missed it?

The more you look at this the more you wonder if its a spoof.

Not convinced, here's why:

According to the Shropshire Star, the footage was taken by a 14 year old boy.

Most 14 year old nowadays seem, to me at least, to be constantly doing something or other with their phone, so having his phone out and filming does not seem improbable. Also, fact that the extract starts off as a view of a girl through the train window seems authentic enough behaviour for a 14 year old boy.

For technical reasons which would be tedious to go into here I believe this may well be only part of a longer shot - either way the published video is clearly the one video clip which runs continuously from start to finish.

The phone camera was clearly already running when the announcement was made, and continues to run for some time after, for reasons which may not be unconnected to my first point.

The execrable standard of filming and the lamentable display of VVS is all too typical of casual use of mobile phones, but it does seem credible here.

Without access to a download of the original video file to analyse the soundtrack and the video on a frame by frame basis it is difficult to be absolutely certain, but it looks genuine enough to me, and I believe we are seeing and hearing what actually happened.

 

[Zoidberg]

...

the lamentable display of VVS is all too typical of casual use of mobile phones

...

Thanks for that

 

[Smudger105e]

I have done a little googling of thi issue, and there seems to be a wide variety of views on this matter. There are views from an organisation who support gypsies (called imaginatively 'gypsy-traveller.org) who state that there is no evidence to support claims that crime rises when gypsies or travellers move in to an area, and at the other extreme there are other sites such as gypsypsychicscams.com which argue the other extreme. And then there's the Dail Mail.

My personal experience is that thefts and burglaries do increase when Travellers are in my local area, but I am also not totally convinced that travellers and gypsies are one and the same.

 

[Tetchytyke]

No, it was aimed at a group of people which makes it much worse.

Gypsies are considered a race of people under the Equality Act, etc, which makes it even worse than that.

Substitute "gypsy" for n- or p- and the guard would sacked.

The guard probably won't be- Martin Brundle referred to "pikeys" on his F1 commentary and kept his job- but I don't think people realise just how offensive this can be.

 

[Smudger105e]

Gypsies are considered a race of people under the Equality Act, etc, which makes it even worse than that.

Substitute "gypsy" for n- or p- and the guard would sacked.

The guard probably won't be- Martin Brundle referred to "pikeys" on his F1 commentary and kept his job- but I don't think people realise just how offensive this can be.

But surely, Gypsy is a description of a racial minority, and as such cannot be racist? Saying it is racist is like saying it is racist to call Jews Jewish or people from Poland Poles? I can understand the terms Gyppo (sp?) or Pikey being taken as offensive, but gypsy? I think not. But I am open to persuasion.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But surely, Gypsy is a description of a racial minority, and as such cannot be racist?

Calling a gypsy a gypsy is probably not racist, though depends on context.

Making a tannoy announcement to "watch out for the gypsies" probably is racist.

My point was more that if the guard had said "watch out for the blacks", he'd be sacked, and rightly so. Saying the same about gypsies is no different.

 

[transmanche]

This reminds me of the row after Viz published a certain cartoon - and having to publish an apology in a subsequent edition. This was in the early 1990s, so the ability of such comments to cause offence is hardly unknown.

 

[Greenback]

My personal experience is that thefts and burglaries do increase when Travellers are in my local area, but I am also not totally convinced that travellers and gypsies are one and the same.

Quite. They are not the same, although the terms are often used interchangeably in ignorance. Many travellers have no gypsy connection at all, and not all gypsies are travelling around.

Incidentalyl, there was a traveller site not far from us for about nine months last year. There was no crime wave, and no reports of any more petty crime or burglaries than is normal in this neck of the woods.

Gypsies are considered a race of people under the Equality Act, etc, which makes it even worse than that.

Substitute "gypsy" for n- or p- and the guard would sacked.

The guard probably won't be- Martin Brundle referred to "pikeys" on his F1 commentary and kept his job- but I don't think people realise just how offensive this can be.

I think that there is a lot more awareness these days, but there is still much work to be done, evidently.

But surely, Gypsy is a description of a racial minority, and as such cannot be racist? Saying it is racist is like saying it is racist to call Jews Jewish or people from Poland Poles? I can understand the terms Gyppo (sp?) or Pikey being taken as offensive, but gypsy? I think not. But I am open to persuasion.

The term gypsy in and of itself is not offensive, it's the act of telling passengers to beware of them when approaching a station that is the offending act!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Still I would never expect such an announcement to be made in a public area.

That is the crux of the matter. It reflects badly on the individual and the organisation.

58,000 identify as Gypsy or Irish Travellers at the last census. I doubt every one of have committed a crime.

Me too!

I know a few personally and they have fairly steady, if low paying and menial jobs. None of them have committed any crimes.

I bet that there are also a few people about who identify themselves as Gypsy or Romany but prefer to keep it to themselves because of the fear of prejudice. No doubt the vast majority are also law abiding citizens as well.

Your prejudice is quite disturbing...

I agree.

 

[Zoidberg]

...

Your prejudice is quite disturbing...

Because I laughed at a statement I found amusing? Right ...

 

[Oswyntail]

...to have bit of joke and banter on a train full of football supporters.....

I am surprised it took four pages for this standard (pathetic) excuse to be rolled out. There should be a version of Godwin's law to cover it. Incidentally, I wonder if the large police presence was there to cope with the subjects of the announcement.....or the audience.

 

[soil]

I am surprised it took four pages for this standard (pathetic) excuse to be rolled out. There should be a version of Godwin's law to cover it. Incidentally, I wonder if the large police presence was there to cope with the subjects of the announcement.....or the audience.

Well quite.

Why doesn't the announcer warn the normal passengers about the drunken, violent football supporters?

It's just bullying.

I certainly would prefer not to be on a train with football supporters.

 

[AndyNLondon]

Because I laughed at a statement I found amusing? Right ...

Laughing at something that you find amusing is unexceptional. The comment "gypsies, the majority of whom are law-abiding" is a simple statement of fact, though - what makes it laughable or particularly amusing, if not a prejudiced belief that gypsies are criminals?

 

[NJTom]

Perhaps he was just reciting the lyrics to his favorite Cher song.

 

[Zoidberg]

Laughing at something that you find amusing is unexceptional. The comment "gypsies, the majority of whom are law-abiding" is a simple statement of fact, though - what makes it laughable or particularly amusing, if not a prejudiced belief that gypsies are criminals?

I believe that gypsies are criminals? Really? Where have said or implied that I believe that?

Reference was to law-abiding. There is not just criminal law with which one is supposed to abide. But, anyway, of course I don't believe that all gypsies are not law-abiding. But given my experiences, the statement simply caused me amusement.

Perhaps he was just reciting the lyrics to his favorite Cher song.

She's such a great performer it's difficult to have a favourite

 

[Chapeltom]

I think it amazing that people find this so offensive, whilst it was a poor idea and the announcement suffered from a severe lack of judgement I really do feel more is being made of this than should be. Gypsies do tend to be associated with criminality, more those other than minority groups. I have first hand experience of it, on two trips abroad in recent months, I witnessed a mate of mine having around £100 stolen by people of that origin, he didn't notice but I did and couldn't do anything about it. And this weekend just gone I was myself, fleeced of a significantly lesser amount on another trip, around £20 which was a 1/5 of my spending money. I then got hassled less than 10 minutes later by another group of gypsy origin begging for more money, when I'd just had money stolen, infuriating wasn't the word. I find it absolutely appalling how children are used in this way to steal, as we were both targetted by children with their minders/parents/whatever. It put a blot of both weekend's away.

But nothing I could do it in either case, but I'm not prejudice against them as not all gyspies are associated with criminality. But walk round many major cities and you see the same thing, people of a gypsy origin begging for money and they are usually the ones involved in pick-pocketing. It is not difficult to see why people pick up on these things and then attempt to may a joke out of it. It isn't prejudice to say something that is true, it may be seen as offensive but I don't think it was really that bad. If you go to a country with a significant amount of people of gypsy origin you always get told the same story, about criminality etc.

Anyway back to the original point, I can see why some people found this announcement offensive and whilst it was wrong, there is a mountain being made out a mole-hill. The announcement should not have been made, and can see why it was made as it may have been thought it would amuse the crowd on that train, yet of course it was still wrong. Had I heard it, given my recent experiences I'd have let out a wry smile. Do I really think the guard/whoever it was announcing was displaying prejudice? No. I think it was playing on stereotypes and obviously people have taken offence to it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Gypsies do tend to be associated with criminality, more those other than minority groups.

But walk round many major cities and you see the same thing, people of a gypsy origin begging for money

1. What's your source? Data is not the plural of anecdote.

2. How do you know they were gypsies? Did you ask them?

 

[Chapeltom]

1. What's your source? Data is not the plural of anecdote.

2. How do you know they were gypsies? Did you ask them?

I cannot seriously believe you want an answer to that Yes, I do find it amusing because I'm not prejudice at all. Trust me, I always throw caution to pickpockets no matter if I'm in London, Skopje, Tallinn or wherever else I've been. I treat everyone as a potential 'problem' wherever I am, I'm always cautious when abroad or even in a major city in the UK.

What's my source? First hand experience and speaking to other travellers.

How did I know they were gypsies? I think it is a little bit obvious to be quite honest, especially having been to nine countries and two other capital cities in the last 18 months.

 

[47802]

Obviously it was not the best thing to say over a PA, but as usual many people are making a meal of it.

 

[Antman]

I cannot see how anybody could have taken this as anything other than a joke.................sadly there seems to be no end of people just looking to be offended these days

 

[Greenback]

I cannot see how anybody could have taken this as anything other than a joke.................sadly there seems to be no end of people just looking to be offended these days

It was clearly meant as joke. It's sad that people don't realise that a) it's not funny and b) humour should not be used an excuse for stereotyping and prejudice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How did I know they were gypsies? I think it is a little bit obvious to be quite honest, especially having been to nine countries and two other capital cities in the last 18 months.

Please, do tell how it was obvious. Although I've been to as many countries as you have in the last 18 months, possibly more I don't see how that makes it easier for me to spot whether someone is a gypsy or not.

I may well think that a person is, but that would only be based on my stereotypical view of what a gypsy is - eg a woman with a shawl and a baby asking for money? Must be a gypsy!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Obviously it was not the best thing to say over a PA, but as usual many people are making a meal of it.

Indeed. Ill-advised but it's been blown out of all proportion.

I cannot see how anybody could have taken this as anything other than a joke.................sadly there seems to be no end of people just looking to be offended these days

Indeed again.

It was clearly meant as joke. It's sad that people don't realise that a) it's not funny and b) humour should not be used an excuse for stereotyping and prejudice.

It's sad that people don't realise humour is entirely subjective. I will admit it isn't the greatest thing the guard could say, but to claim something just outright isn't funny just shows disrespect and arrogance itself towards other people.

 

[Greenback]

It's sad that people don't realise humour is entirely subjective. I will admit it isn't the greatest thing the guard could say, but to claim something just outright isn't funny just shows disrespect and arrogance itself towards other people.

I fail to see how using humour to undermine, condemn and ostracise an entire group of people, whethe rit is by race, religion or anything else can be considered funny.

Making a joke such as the guard did is the very thing that shows disrespect and arrogance towards a group, not classing the joke as not funny.

Or perhaps it's only funny if a joke is made at the expense of certain groups, but not others? Is that what you mean by subjective?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I fail to see how using humour to undermine, condemn and ostracise an entire group of people, whethe rit is by race, religion or anything else can be considered funny.

Making a joke such as the guard did is the very thing that shows disrespect and arrogance towards a group, not classing the joke as not funny.

Or perhaps it's only funny if a joke is made at the expense of certain groups, but not others? Is that what you mean by subjective?

You showed disrespect and arrogance to others by stating something wasn't funny - it is up for people themselves to decide that, don't tell people what to think. I would be intrigued to know just how many gypsies would genuinely be offended by that, and how many would just shrug their shoulders or laugh it off. There are plenty of things I could have been offended by over the course of my lifetime concerning my political, religious or whatever beliefs or background, but I don't, I just either laugh with them and admit it was funny, or if I deem it wasn't just ignore it and carry on. Similarly I had many Asian friends back home who never minded Asian stereotypes because they would do the same. What the guard said was an incredibly stupid thing to do, however it has been blown out of all proportion. Like I said I would genuinely love to know if any gypsies found the comments offensive, and how many of the complainers have just been people getting offended on other peoples' behalves.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Because I laughed at a statement I found amusing? Right ...

If you can't piece together that laughing at that statement is indicative of prejudice (why would you find it funny if you believed it?), then I'm a bit worried.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I cannot see how anybody could have taken this as anything other than a joke.................sadly there seems to be no end of people just looking to be offended these days

Ah yes. It's so sad that people are calling out perpetuations of unpleasant stereotypes...

People said the same thing in the 1920s about women, and I imagine will be in the next 100 years about many other groups too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You showed disrespect and arrogance to others by stating something wasn't funny - it is up for people themselves to decide that, don't tell people what to think. I would be intrigued to know just how many gypsies would genuinely be offended by that, and how many would just shrug their shoulders or laugh it off. There are plenty of things I could have been offended by over the course of my lifetime concerning my political, religious or whatever beliefs or background, but I don't, I just either laugh with them and admit it was funny, or if I deem it wasn't just ignore it and carry on. Similarly I had many Asian friends back home who never minded Asian stereotypes because they would do the same. What the guard said was an incredibly stupid thing to do, however it has been blown out of all proportion. Like I said I would genuinely love to know if any gypsies found the comments offensive, and how many of the complainers have just been people getting offended on other peoples' behalves.

That argument is equivalent to "you're restricting my freedom by not allowing me to discriminate" that many of our religious cousins over the pond are so keen on.

 

[Chapeltom]

If you can't piece together that laughing at that statement is indicative of prejudice (why would you find it funny if you believed it?), then I'm a bit worried.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Ah yes. It's so sad that people are calling out perpetuations of unpleasant stereotypes...

People said the same thing in the 1920s about women, and I imagine will be in the next 100 years about many other groups too.

Hang on, Zoidberg has said that his amusement was based on experiences in the past. Now correct me if I'm wrong but prejudice is "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience". So how can he/she be displaying prejudice if he/she has actual experience of that group of people.

When you've experienced a group of people, and have come to some kind of harm/monentary loss (like for example I have) it cannot be prejudice.

 

[meridian2]

It was clearly meant as joke. It's sad that people don't realise that a) it's not funny and b) humour should not be used an excuse for stereotyping and prejudice.
!

So if it was clearly meant as a joke the rest surely is inconsequential? You're contradicting yourself. One moment you say it's prejudice, the next minute you're telling all of us that it was 'clearly meant as a joke'.
Your sophistry is tying your knickers in a twist.

 

[Greenback]

Hang on, Zoidberg has said that his amusement was based on experiences in the past. Now correct me if I'm wrong but prejudice is "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience". So how can he/she be displaying prejudice if he/she was actual experience of that group of people.

When you've experienced a group of people, and have come to some kind of harm/monentary loss (like for example I have) it cannot be prejudice.

Of course it can!

Imagine that I was once pickpocketed by a very clever black man. Should I then warn everyone to beware black people? Equally, if I was robbed by someone with a Birmingham accent, would that mean that I should assume that every member of that community is a thief and should not be trusted?

Experience, yes, but not an opinion based on reason.

 

[Gemz91]

I think it amazing that people find this so offensive, whilst it was a poor idea and the announcement suffered from a severe lack of judgement I really do feel more is being made of this than should be. Gypsies do tend to be associated with criminality, more those other than minority groups. I have first hand experience of it, on two trips abroad in recent months, I witnessed a mate of mine having around £100 stolen by people of that origin, he didn't notice but I did and couldn't do anything about it. And this weekend just gone I was myself, fleeced of a significantly lesser amount on another trip, around £20 which was a 1/5 of my spending money. I then got hassled less than 10 minutes later by another group of gypsy origin begging for more money, when I'd just had money stolen, infuriating wasn't the word. I find it absolutely appalling how children are used in this way to steal, as we were both targetted by children with their minders/parents/whatever. It put a blot of both weekend's away.

But nothing I could do it in either case, but I'm not prejudice against them as not all gyspies are associated with criminality. But walk round many major cities and you see the same thing, people of a gypsy origin begging for money and they are usually the ones involved in pick-pocketing. It is not difficult to see why people pick up on these things and then attempt to may a joke out of it. It isn't prejudice to say something that is true, it may be seen as offensive but I don't think it was really that bad. If you go to a country with a significant amount of people of gypsy origin you always get told the same story, about criminality etc.

Anyway back to the original point, I can see why some people found this announcement offensive and whilst it was wrong, there is a mountain being made out a mole-hill. The announcement should not have been made, and can see why it was made as it may have been thought it would amuse the crowd on that train, yet of course it was still wrong. Had I heard it, given my recent experiences I'd have let out a wry smile. Do I really think the guard/whoever it was announcing was displaying prejudice? No. I think it was playing on stereotypes and obviously people have taken offence to it.

I would assume (and am opened to be corrected) that the gypsies you experienced are of the Roma Gypsy background, how ever, judging by what else has been said here, the Gypsy "problem" in Telford (or which ever town it was in) sounds to be more of the travelling Gypsy background we experiance in Britain, quite often of Irish decent. If this is the case, that makes your argument completely invalid.

How people can still argue that the guard was in no wrong is baffling. Its nothing to do with political correctness, or being offended, to make such an announcement just shows complete lack of common sense. I'd like to see the reaction if a guard warned people of the Pakistanis whilst arriving into Rochdale, or the gays arriving into Brighton, Samolians into Birmingham. I somehow doubt people would still be defending him.