Notice of Intended Prosecution from Chiltern railways

[greyman42]

used advanced ticket on a wrong train

They will have no way of proving this.

 

[30907]

used advanced ticket on a wrong train

Thanks. As you travelled on those occasions without being stopped I, too, would be surprised if they could prove this.
I would send them your railcard details as requested and wait for their response.

 

[CyrusWuff]

They will have no way of proving this.

If the tickets in question had a barcode and one or both stations is gated, Chiltern will be able to check the scan history and infer it.

Not absolute proof of being on the wrong train, of course.

 

[najaB]

Yet more misuse of data that the ICO will do precisely nothing about.

Not sure that it's misuse. One of the valid reasons to access PII is to 'detect and prevent crime'. If they genuinely haven't realised that they're out of time to bring a prosecution then their actions would be reasonable.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Not sure that it's misuse. One of the valid reasons to access PII is to 'detect and prevent crime'. If they genuinely haven't realised that they're out of time to bring a prosecution then their actions would be reasonable.

And I think we would need a proper lawyer to interpret whether<an offence which is out of time for prosecution> is or is not 'a crime ' for data protection purposes.

 

[najaB]

And I think we would need a proper lawyer to interpret whether<an offence which is out of time for prosecution> is or is not 'a crime ' for data protection purposes.

I guess it comes down to if their actions are being performed in good faith or not.

 

[island]

I would just reiterate AlterEgo’s above advice – Chiltern are out of time to prosecute the alleged offences which occurred in excess of six months ago. The appropriate response is no response.

 

[najaB]

I would just reiterate AlterEgo’s above advice – Chiltern are out of time to prosecute the alleged offences which occurred in excess of six months ago. The appropriate response is no response.

I agree that no response is necessary. However, there is still an outstanding fare, so if the OP wants to be 'whiter than white' then they should ask Chiltern how to repay the difference.

Edit: Asking how to pay the outstanding fare has the additional advantage of making a civil court case problematic for Chiltern, to say the least.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I agree that no response is necessary. However, there is still an outstanding fare, so if the OP wants to be 'whiter than white' then they should ask Chiltern how to repay the difference.

Edit: Asking how to pay the outstanding fare has the additional advantage of making a civil court case problematic for Chiltern, to say the least.

I suspect Chiltern's initial approach will be the same as if the OP had been stopped on each occasion they were travelling without a valid Railcard but not issued a Penalty Fare.

Namely that there is no right to Excess away a Railcard discount and the fare due is the undiscounted Anytime Single or Return fare for the journey.

 

[najaB]

I suspect Chiltern's initial approach will be the same as if the OP had been stopped on each occasion they were travelling without a valid Railcard but not issued a Penalty Fare.

Namely that there is no right to Excess away a Railcard discount and the fare due is the undiscounted Anytime Single or Return fare for the journey.

And if prosecution was still an option I would advise the OP to acquiesce to that demand. But, seeing as that's not on the table, I would be inclined to give Chiltern the option of "some money or none" and see what their next move was. There's every chance that they'll decide to take the easy option rather than going to civil court.

 

[AlbertBeale]

@najaB @Pushpit @greyman42 @Hadders @AlterEgo @John R Thanks for your support and you are doing an expectional contribution in the forum.
@Pushpit regarding my constant worry is because it directly affects my visa and job.

With all your support I've decided to draft a mail rather than contacting a solicitor. Even though chiltern cant proscute after 6 months, I dont want to take chances.

It would be very helpful if you can proof read my drafted reply to chiltern before sending it.

drafted mail:
'''
Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing in response to the Notice of Intended Prosecution dated 8th July 2024.

Firstly, I would like to express my sincere apologies for any inconvenience caused by this situation. I assure you that it was never my intention to travel without a valid ticket. I always aim to comply with the regulations and purchase the appropriate tickets for my journeys.

On the date in question, I purchased an advance single ticket ( attaching it for reference) for the train but inadvertently boarded an earlier train. When the ticket inspector approached me, he informed me that I must travel on the train for which I booked the ticket. However, I understand this was my mistake for not fully understanding the ticket restrictions. After being informed by the ticket inspector, I have always ensured to travel on the trains at the times I booked.

As a job seeker, maintaining a clean record is crucial for my career prospects, and a criminal record could significantly impact my future opportunities. I deeply regret any misunderstanding that may have occurred and am more than willing to cooperate fully to resolve this matter.

If there is any penalty or fine that needs to be paid to rectify this situation, or any loss incurred that needs to be compensated, I am prepared to do so. I would be grateful if you could take this into account and offer any advice on how I can rectify the situation.

I want to assure you that this will not happen again, and I will be more careful in the future to ensure that I always board the correct train. Once again, I sincerely apologize for any inconvenience caused and appreciate your understanding and consideration in this matter.

I look forward to your response.

Kind regards,
'''

There's one point about your draft: you didn't inadvertently board an earlier train - you knew it was an earlier train, but say you didn't know that it mattered. (That's the point of cheaper Advance tickets - you save money, but in return you lose the flexibility of an ordinary ticket.)

There are now two issues getting confused - firstly you should write to them offering to pay the unpaid fare from the day they found you without a valid ticket. (Though you've said they asked you for this at the time, but you didn't pay it - why not? If you'd just paid what they asked at the time they pointed out you didn't have a valid ticket, then none of this would be happening. From what you say, they didn't even ask you for the full price of a new ticket, just the difference between a valid ticket and what you'd paid for the invalid one ... you were given the chance to get off very lightly, in fact.)

The second issue is that because you're on their radar, they're also suspicious about your ticket record [I assume you've always been buying electronic tickets rather than physical tickets - electronic tickets, as with other transactions online, are of course not secret] and want you to prove you had the appropriate railcard when you used railcard-discounted tickets. Assuming you did only buy and use discounted tickets when you had the relevant railcard, then you can show them a copy of the railcard and that will settle the matter.

As others have pointed out, however, there's a potential further complication here. Some railcard discounts are only allowed at certain times, or attract a particular minimum fare at certain times - so if you combined a railcard-discounted ticket with travelling at a different time from the one you said when buying the ticket (even if it's not an "Advance" ticket), that could mean you were wrongly claiming a railcard discount. Railway companies know this is a common trick for people to get discounts they're not entitled to. So you need to be sure there are no anomalies of this sort on your record either.

 

[m1037433]

There's one point about your draft: you didn't inadvertently board an earlier train - you knew it was an earlier train, but say you didn't know that it mattered. (That's the point of cheaper Advance tickets - you save money, but in return you lose the flexibility of an ordinary ticket.)

There are now two issues getting confused - firstly you should write to them offering to pay the unpaid fare from the day they found you without a valid ticket. (Though you've said they asked you for this at the time, but you didn't pay it - why not? If you'd just paid what they asked at the time they pointed out you didn't have a valid ticket, then none of this would be happening. From what you say, they didn't even ask you for the full price of a new ticket, just the difference between a valid ticket and what you'd paid for the invalid one ... you were given the chance to get off very lightly, in fact.)

The second issue is that because you're on their radar, they're also suspicious about your ticket record [I assume you've always been buying electronic tickets rather than physical tickets - electronic tickets, as with other transactions online, are of course not secret] and want you to prove you had the appropriate railcard when you used railcard-discounted tickets. Assuming you did only buy and use discounted tickets when you had the relevant railcard, then you can show them a copy of the railcard and that will settle the matter.

As others have pointed out, however, there's a potential further complication here. Some railcard discounts are only allowed at certain times, or attract a particular minimum fare at certain times - so if you combined a railcard-discounted ticket with travelling at a different time from the one you said when buying the ticket (even if it's not an "Advance" ticket), that could mean you were wrongly claiming a railcard discount. Railway companies know this is a common trick for people to get discounts they're not entitled to. So you need to be sure there are no anomalies of this sort on your record either.

- I've always had a valid railcard
- TBh I never knew that I can't board an earlier train until the encounter with ticket inspector. The barrier gate opens when I show the QR code and foolishly believed that I can board train
- On the day of encounter, I presumed that he was giving me warning ( may be due to my language gap ). I had no clue that there will be such consequences else I would have paid the fare.
- In the final draft I sent to Chiltern. I've mentioned only the payment of outstanding fare not the other words like fine, penalty, etc
- After the encounter, I've always travelled in correct train.

 

[AlbertBeale]

- I've always had a valid railcard
- TBh I never knew that I can't board an earlier train until the encounter with ticket inspector. The barrier gate opens when I show the QR code and foolishly believed that I can board train
- On the day of encounter, I presumed that he was giving me warning ( may be due to my language gap ). I had no clue that there will be such consequences else I would have paid the fare.
- In the final draft I sent to Chiltern. I've mentioned only the payment of outstanding fare not the other words like fine, penalty, etc
- After the encounter, I've always travelled in correct train.

Re always having a valid railcard. But has it always been valid on the train concerned, and for the price of the ticket you bought? It's possible to have a valid railcard, and to buy a discounted ticket based on it, but then make the journey at a time when the discount claimed is not valid. Hence this adds an extra possible offence, if the occasions you've used a railcard are also occasions you've travelled on a train which isn't the one you said you'd use when you bought the ticket. (And this applies to a regular ticket as well as an Advance one, if you tell the ticket system you'll be on a train when the railcard would be OK, but then use it at a different time of day.)

I'm puzzled about not realising you couldn't travel on the train specified - that's the whole point of an Advance ticket. I thought the cheaper "Advance" tickets, where such exist, always said clearly "Only valid on this train", or words to that effect. I've never had an Advance ticket which didn't say this on the ticket.

You say you thought they were giving you a warning and that's why you didn't pay - but your earlier message said the opposite, namely that they asked you to pay them, but you didn't. So it must have been obvious that the (subsequent) warning was because you refused to pay when asked. Did you refuse to pay, and then assume you'd just get away with it because they wouldn't follow up your refusal? That seems naive, frankly.

 

[najaB]

Re always having a valid railcard. But has it always been valid on the train concerned, and for the price of the ticket you bought? It's possible to have a valid railcard, and to buy a discounted ticket based on it, but then make the journey at a time when the discount claimed is not valid.

Are there railcard discounts that wouldn't be valid in the evening with Chiltern?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Are there railcard discounts that wouldn't be valid in the evening with Chiltern?

I realise that the incident concerned was in the evening; however since there are further questions being asked about previous travel with a railcard discount, it's not clear from the information so far whether any of these could have been at a time of day when the railcard time restrictions might have been valid.

 

[m1037433]

I got a reply back from Chiltern and the reply is below
'

Thank you for your patience while we look into your case.



We are a very busy department so this can take some time.



We hope to have a response for you within two months.

'

 

[AlterEgo]

Stop contacting them!! They can’t prosecute you. Stop asking to have your trousers pulled down here.

 

[m1037433]

I didn't send any message to Chiltern or contact Chiltern after sending my Railcard info which they requested. I got this mail as a suprise