Nuneaton - St Pancras alternative route for VT during blockade?

[30907]

Obviously the VT blockade buster route between Euston and Nuneaton isn't an option this weekend, but is there an operational reason (as opposed to a commercial one) why VT couldn't run a shuttle using some of its Voyagers between STP and NUN via the Wigston curve?

Platform lengths at STP would mean restricting then to 10 cars, and only one platform could be made available, but I would have thought an hourly shuttle would have been a better option than sending everyone to/from the NW across the Pennines?

Am I missing something very obvious?

PS Mods please move this to a different forum if need be. And apols if this has been asked before and I've missed it.

 

[Failed Unit]

Paths and platform space i suspect. The latter is certainly an issue, it is a pity that the London - Sheffield services can't extend to Preston. Although i am not sure if the voyagers are clear on any part of the route.

 

[Mag_seven]

why VT couldn't run a shuttle using some of its Voyagers between STP and NUN via the Wigston curve?

More to the point why are they not using Voyagers to provide a shuttle service between Glasgow Central and Carlisle via Dumfries rather that shoving people on buses. (oh I know it costs less and profit not public service is king in today's privatised railway)

 

[HLE]

Voyagers are cleared between Nuneaton and Leicester, so surely they are between Wigston and St Pancras? The Wigston curve may be the issue though in terms of clearance. won't happen though.

 

[Class 170101]

More to the point why are they not using Voyagers to provide a shuttle service between Glasgow Central and Carlisle via Dumfries rather that shoving people on buses. (oh I know it costs less and profit not public service is king in today's privatised railway)

Pathing issues on the GSW.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Paths and platform space i suspect. The latter is certainly an issue, it is a pity that the London - Sheffield services can't extend to Preston. Although i am not sure if the voyagers are clear on any part of the route.

Platform space can be created I would have thought. What happened when Thameslink operated (and terminated) upstairs rather than running through the core?

 

[Mag_seven]

British Rail used to manage diversions on the G&SW - and that was with more single track sections than we have now - is the reason "pathing issues" just a cop out?

 

[Class 170101]

Remember BR was one organisation now its separate private companies with Track Access Contracts.

WTT paths have greater rights than Short Term Paths so it can be easier just to put people on a bus.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

More to the point why are they not using Voyagers to provide a shuttle service between Glasgow Central and Carlisle via Dumfries rather that shoving people on buses. (oh I know it costs less and profit not public service is king in today's privatised railway)

They are: 1 a day each way Sat/Sun, 2 on Mon.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...6/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=VT

Sunday also involves Voyagers Birmingham-Lancaster via Chester.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

British Rail used to manage diversions on the G&SW - and that was with more single track sections than we have now - is the reason "pathing issues" just a cop out?

Glasgow-Kilmarnock is half-hourly now however, and there is still a 7 mile single from Barrhead to Lugton and a 5~ mile single from Lochridge to Kilmarnock, with an intermediate stop at Kilmaurs where everything calls. Certainly not straightforward, especially when you then have the 2tph all stations between Barrhead and Central to consider, and the 2tph from the East Kilbride line too...

 

[Class 170101]

Sunday also involves Voyagers Birmingham-Lancaster via Chester.

That seems a bit strange surely it would have been better to run Electric via Manchester and Wigan NW rather than Voyager via Chester.

 

[A0wen]

Obviously the VT blockade buster route between Euston and Nuneaton isn't an option this weekend, but is there an operational reason (as opposed to a commercial one) why VT couldn't run a shuttle using some of its Voyagers between STP and NUN via the Wigston curve?

Platform lengths at STP would mean restricting then to 10 cars, and only one platform could be made available, but I would have thought an hourly shuttle would have been a better option than sending everyone to/from the NW across the Pennines?

Am I missing something very obvious?

PS Mods please move this to a different forum if need be. And apols if this has been asked before and I've missed it.

There is engineering works on the MML over the weekend between Bedford & Leicester (may be related to electrification prep) which is resulting in timetable changes and presumably reduced capacity?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That seems a bit strange surely it would have been better to run Electric via Manchester and Wigan NW rather than Voyager via Chester.

Engineering works between Crewe and Warrington BQ. Already stuff being diverted via Cheadle Hume & Piccadilly - presumably all paths used hence diversion of other stuff via Chester?

 

[swt_passenger]

...What happened when Thameslink operated (and terminated) upstairs rather than running through the core?

The temporary (interim) station on the east side used by MML and Thameslink during the blockade (while the underground box was built) had more platforms, 6 IIRC? Did MML have the same number of services per hour as they do now, or fewer?

 

[30907]

Sunday also involves Voyagers Birmingham-Lancaster via Chester.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is engineering works on the MML over the weekend between Bedford & Leicester (may be related to electrification prep) which is resulting in timetable changes and presumably reduced capacity?

Thanks both, relevant complicating factors.

 

[driver_m]

Youve missed out route learning. It would take a long time to get drivers and train managers passed out on the route. Not only is there a lot to learn. Getting there would eat into the time available to actually learn it. Even from the nearest depot at wolves.

 

[Class 170101]

The temporary (interim) station on the east side used by MML and Thameslink during the blockade (while the underground box was built) had more platforms, 6 IIRC? Did MML have the same number of services per hour as they do now, or fewer?

No I am referring to the weekend use of Platforms 1 - 4 when the core is blocked. I've seen 319s in left most platform (ticket barriers behind you) next to the wall within the last 12 months.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Youve missed out route learning. It would take a long time to get drivers and train managers passed out on the route. Not only is there a lot to learn. Getting there would eat into the time available to actually learn it. Even from the nearest depot at wolves.

Surely Euston would be easier? Looks like Wembley was open towards Euston and St Pancras.

 

[edwin_m]

The temporary (interim) station on the east side used by MML and Thameslink during the blockade (while the underground box was built) had more platforms, 6 IIRC? Did MML have the same number of services per hour as they do now, or fewer?

According to Wikipedia, Corby station didn't re-open until 2009. The MML service before then was 4TPH.

 

[swt_passenger]

No I am referring to the weekend use of Platforms 1 - 4 when the core is blocked. I've seen 319s in left most platform (ticket barriers behind you) next to the wall within the last 12 months...

Ah OK. I guess you can see how I thought you might have been referring to the long blockade though, when Thameslink operated from 'upstairs' for about 9 months.

 

[Tony2215]

I wonder how virgin are coping with crowding this weekend since they are running a very little service? Surely more trains could run to Rugby or Northampton via Nuneaton, yesterday for example had just three trains, one of them running via West midlands to fill a Birmingham path then onto fill a Manchester path from Stoke onwards. On Easter holiday weekend is this the best they can do?

 

[MCR247]

No I am referring to the weekend use of Platforms 1 - 4 when the core is blocked. I've seen 319s in left most platform (ticket barriers behind you) next to the wall within the last 12 months.
.

I'm pretty sure EMT can run a normal Saturday service with 3 platforms, however this involves having the "slow" (5 car 222) xx26 Sheffield and the slow xx29 Nottingham on the same platform. If EMT decided to strengthen services, they may have needed all four platforms

 

[cjmillsnun]

Platform space can be created I would have thought. What happened when Thameslink operated (and terminated) upstairs rather than running through the core?

EMT suffered.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I wonder how virgin are coping with crowding this weekend since they are running a very little service? Surely more trains could run to Rugby or Northampton via Nuneaton, yesterday for example had just three trains, one of them running via West midlands to fill a Birmingham path then onto fill a Manchester path from Stoke onwards. On Easter holiday weekend is this the best they can do?

I would be interested to see how busy it was yesterday: my sister got on a late afternoon service between Carlisle and Keynes (via Birmingham) and said it was the quietest train she'd ever been on!

 

[Hadders]

The temporary (interim) station on the east side used by MML and Thameslink during the blockade (while the underground box was built) had more platforms, 6 IIRC? Did MML have the same number of services per hour as they do now, or fewer?

Remember that nothing ran through the core during the period that the Thameslink box was being built so all the MML and Thameslink services would have had to use the 6 platforms on the east side of St Pancras.

 

[swt_passenger]

Remember that nothing ran through the core during the period that the Thameslink box was being built so all the MML and Thameslink services would have had to use the 6 platforms on the east side of St Pancras.

That was the point I was making, during the long term blockade there were up to 6 platforms available, compared to the 4 now available when Thameslink have to share 'upstairs' with EMT during normal weekend engineering work. But it then turned out that Class 170101 wasn't referring to that period anyway.

 

[30907]

Youve missed out route learning. It would take a long time to get drivers and train managers passed out on the route. Not only is there a lot to learn. Getting there would eat into the time available to actually learn it. Even from the nearest depot at wolves.

Yes it would have to be learnt, but its not impossible. They learnt High Wycombe after all!
But VT or NR could take a commercial decision that it wasn't worth it.

 

[louis97]

I'm pretty sure EMT can run a normal Saturday service with 3 platforms, however this involves having the "slow" (5 car 222) xx26 Sheffield and the slow xx29 Nottingham on the same platform. If EMT decided to strengthen services, they may have needed all four platforms

The current timetable (using 4 platforms) requires the xx26 and xx29 to share platforms all the time - and this means adding capacity to each of these trains long term would require a timetable change. The only way to allow EMT timetable to work around 3 platforms now is to hold a train outside the station. The timetable before line speed improvements you would just get these 2 trains sharing platforms.

For example if the xx58 Sheffield is on Platform 1, the xx01 Corby is on Platform 2 and the xx15 is on Platform 3. This then means that the xx54 and xx57 arrivals would have to wait for the xx58 Sheffield to depart before gaining a platform.

It is not possible to have 5 trains in and out in an hour without platform sharing with the current station turnaround times, before line speed improvements no platform sharing was required because trains would wait outside the station for a minute or so (that and journey times mean't arrivals were more spread out into the next hour) - however with the line speed increases waiting outside would be for too long to allow it (up to 5 minutes) - therefore these trains share platforms, although the conflicts in the station throat can cause issues as it is not possible for each train to use the same platform each hour.

For Reference
Arr/Dep
xx01 - Corby
xx13 - Fast Nottingham
xx15 - Fast Nottingham
xx25 - Corby
xx26 - Slow Sheffield
xx29 - Fast Sheffield
xx29 - Slow Nottingham
xx54 - Slow Nottingham
xx57 - Slow Sheffield
xx58 - Fast Sheffield

 

[driver_m]

Yes it would have to be learnt, but its not impossible. They learnt High Wycombe after all!
But VT or NR could take a commercial decision that it wasn't worth it.

Theres a big difference between going via Chiltern and via the East Midlands though. Not least the fact that both ends were already known for the former. To justify the costs of learning via Leicester we would have to be going constantly, like the project rio that East Mids staff did to Manchester. Id guess there would be very little room to accommodate us at St Pancras even if we were only.using the 221 fleet.

 

[markymark2000]

I know the line is freight only at the moment but would they not be able to run via Milton Keynes and then turn off at Bletchley and run along the ex Metropolitan line and then go into Aylesbury and down that way? I know it is a bit of route learning but it would mean that Rugby, Milton Keynes and Northampton would have a service. LM could use some of this silly 170s or something like that to operate down there.

 

[DarloRich]

I know the line is freight only at the moment but would they not be able to run via Milton Keynes and then turn off at Bletchley and run along the ex Metropolitan line and then go into Aylesbury and down that way? I know it is a bit of route learning but it would mean that Rugby, Milton Keynes and Northampton would have a service. LM could use some of this silly 170s or something like that to operate down there.

you might struggle to cross the several long mile section of missing track after Swanborne............

(it hasn't be "open" for many years and wont reopen for a few more yet)

 

[edwin_m]

Also only some Chiltern units and a few locos are allowed on the tracks shared with the Metropolitan Line between Amersham and Harrow, and the alternative is a single line between Aylesbury and Princes Risborough. When East West Rail opens it will be possible to run via Oxford, or via Haddenham with reversal at Bicester Town/Village/whatever station.