On late night trains ...

[Scotrail84]

As a mere passenger I would point out as a regular user of Southeastern since DOO I now have 6 trains per hour off-peak instead of 2 and it has been many, many years since the fabulous "train cancelled due to shortage of staff" announcement has lead to be late home.

DOO is not rubbish for this customer.

It is rubbish when your train is lying on its side in the path on another train with nobody to stop it because the drivers incapacitated. Yay for DOO........

 

[Monty]

Does that apply in an accident situation too?

Yes, as if you and your colleagues are not safe how are you supposed keep passengers safe if something happens to you?

 

[HSTEd]

It is rubbish when your train is lying on its side in the path on another train with nobody to stop it because the drivers incapacitated. Yay for DOO........

Well..... at Clapham Junction the guard didn't have to inform the authorities for them to realise that there had been an accident... the power control room man knew immediately and would have informed the authorities more rapidly if communications had not fallen to pieces.

Either way, now we have computers in the trains that will shortly be in contact with the infrastructure all the time (thanks to ERTMS and GSM-R), surely a train which suddenly stops reporting to the computer system would trigger alarm bells.

This is not the 60s with no communication between the trains and the traffic control centre.

 

[Monty]

Well..... at Clapham Junction the guard didn't have to inform the authorities for them to realise that there had been an accident... the power control room man knew immediately and would have informed the authorities more rapidly if communications had not fallen to pieces.

Either way, now we have computers in the trains that will shortly be in contact with the infrastructure all the time (thanks to ERTMS and GSM-R), surely a train which suddenly stops reporting to the computer system would trigger alarm bells.

This is not the 60s with no communication between the trains and the traffic control centre.

It's dangerous to assume that the signaller will know what has happened straight away and get a current isolation (in which he needs to contact the ECO) and block all affected lines. That's why it's good to have an extra man to carry out emergency protection.

Guards are also instrumental in controling the situation on the train and keeping the passengers safe, once passengers start pulling the egress it's like hearding cats. Can you imagine a Southall or Landbrook Grove without a guard?!

 

[myboysam]

Bingo.

1st words of the rule book....."your safety is your main priority".

Not in mine it's not.............

Module G1 General safety responsibilities and personal track safety for non-track workers.

" 1.1 Rules, regulations and instructions

Rules, regulations and instructions apply to the task being carried out and to those carrying out the task, no matter what grade or job title they have"

 

[HSTEd]

Well you could do an extensive survey of the network, defining what lines interact with each point on other lines and put this into a computer model, then automatically block all lines related to the last known point the train reported, for a distance defined by the last reported speed of the train.

Drivers in the blocked area or approaching it would be flashed an emergency stop signal over GSM-R and then instructed to proceed on sight, "prepared to stop short of any obstruction".

Third rail supplies on the affected lines could also be isolated automatically, perhaps leaving one line on as far as possible from the line the "lost" train was on to permit a train to reach the site and determine what is going on.

 

[142094]

I think that it's quite common at origin stations on late night trains - the late Northern Rail service from Newcastle to Darlington via Durham (which use to run to Middlesbrough) often operates this way.

In the other direction, I've never seen ticket checks on the last couple of Durham-Newcastle trains, just after midnight, and the barriers are always open at both stations. Totally understandable though, and not worth it for the sake of collecting probably around 5 fares!

Funnily enough the two times I've used this service, the tickets were checked straight after Newcastle. One of them was even a Friday or Saturday night, and the associated rabble/drunks were on but no major problems were caused.

One of the increasing problems I'm seeing up here with some of the last Northern services into Newcastle is people pre-loading (pre-drinking at home), then getting the last service into Newcastle for a night out. The lack of ticket checks can make it unsettling for normal passengers, who don't have that reassurance of seeing a member of staff. It also then invariably leads to half the empties being strewn across the train and stations, the toilets left in a mess and a free ride for those concerned. Northern have done some high-profile ticket checks with BTP on board, but I'd like to see this extended.

 

[jon0844]

Same as on platforms, Saturday Night Rules - keep the trains moving safely, keep the passengers safe and worry about the rest only if it's not going to result in you getting a kicking.

A good way to improving safety on my line at night would be to simply have staff (with security) at King's Cross and Finsbury Park. Keeping people off the trains would be a whole lot more effective, with the added benefit of making people feel more comfortable on the platforms. It wouldn't help much for trains going in the other direction, unless FCC decided to staff more stations until the end of the day/night.

As it is, sure there's a dispatcher at both stations, but they're not going to get involved with incidents (beyond getting on the radio to call for help). Up the staff and the only problem on the train now is the people upgrading to first class. Might as well make all trains after 11pm declassified given how many people 'upgrade'.

Yes, RPIs do sometimes do those stings and catch people but it's not very often.

 

[Phil6219]

In my experience, the later/latest trains from Manchester back to Preston/Blackpool are not the kind of trains a guard should venture through!

I agree, I was out with a group of friends and had the misfortune of travelling on the last (I think) TPex service from Deansgate to Bolton. It was packed, the group got split up with most cramming in the middle car and myself and another squeezing into the rear door vestibule of the rear car. There was no way a guard could have come through anyway as it was totally crammed.

We get to Bolton and all hell breaks loose, people are spilling out of the centre car onto the platform and there is a massive fight between someone from our group and some nasty looking bloke. I legged it down and tried to do my part in separating the pair meanwhile the train left as soon as possible.

It turned out the fight started because it was so cramped that the nasty sort was taking advantage of the situation and feeling up my mates missus, naturally he didn't take kindly too it and did what any bloke would do (especially on the last train on a Saturday night).

I find it ironic though as if we wound the clock back to pre-privatisation days perhaps BR would have ran a relief with extra carriages so it would never have been cramped anyway but I digress.

As for late night security, has anyone tried catching the nightbus from Piccadilly Gardens on a Friday & Saturday night? They have security monitoring the boarding of the buses, some are ok others are just meatheads who should probably be working doors at a crap pub. That said once the bus has left the city centre the driver is on his own & the amount of tosspots on the night bus never ceases to amaze me. I don't like travelling on it, the amount of brawls I've seen or ended up being involved in is unbelievable.

Regarding ticket checks on the trains, I have seen them late at night up here. It depends on how busy the train is, if the guard can get through then he tends to try. I've noticed that Wigan Wallgate now has RPI's working an "imaginary gate" which stops the need of the guard from doing tickets until after the next station call. I had also seen them carried out occasionally on very late night London-Brighton services (southern) though this was a few years ago.

I have the utmost respect for people who work late night services be it Train, bus or Tube as the amount of crap they have to deal with is totally unbelievable.

Phil

 

[John55]

It is rubbish when your train is lying on its side in the path on another train with nobody to stop it because the drivers incapacitated. Yay for DOO........

I have not had that particular experience but I have been on a train which could have hit the remains of a derailed train however the signalling system prevented that happening.

Despite this experience I am more than happy to put up with the advantages I see from DOO when balanced against the risk of the problem you propose which is not exactly an everyday occurrence on todays railway.

 

[6Gman]

As soon as TOCs and BTP start providing the support required, we'll be more than happy to deal with the plebs in our society. Alternatively, supplying us with shotguns would be just as handy.

Rayner's "On & Off The Rails" - excellent book - sort of refers to this. He was told by a guard when he waas DM at Manchester "we don't mind being spat at if you're alongside us being spat at" or something similar.

But I think managers of that type are rare these days!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Some of us stand firm with staff , I assure you. (assaulted several times helping out)

But then I am old school.

Quote from a BR SW division driver "We dont mind drunks - we look after them in a way , but I take exception hen someone has a go at my guard !)

 

[northernrail2009]

I use the 22.07 CC service from Manchester to Macclesfield a lot and at weekends a member of the train crew always checks tickets before people get on and have to say I think it's a great idea and keeps the low life who think they should travel for free off the service.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I'm sure that works well in the north but it just isn't practical on 8 or 12 car trains down here, plus I have a lot of selective door stations which require me to be in a specific location for large parts of the journey.

Local management actually encourage us to put our avantix machines away and concentrate solely on door operations on such services.

 

[Helvellyn]

As a guard myself it's generally done for our own safety. Most attacks/Assaults happen at night and although yes it will let the unhonest travel free, the train wouldn't be going anywhere if the guard/conductor got attacked!!

My view is that if it is not safe enough for me to patrol my train and to be among the passengers, then it is not safe enough for my passengers to be among those putting them at risk! I'll always patrol my train, check tickets and sell them where required.

Some drunk says they won't buy one? Ask again, then move on. Some drunk doesn't have a rilcard? Move on, they at least have a ticket. I think I'm sensible enough to make a risk assessment as I enter each coach, and if it looks rowdy my ticket machine is slung round my back and I just stroll through the coach.

Local management actually encourage us to put our avantix machines away and concentrate solely on door operations on such services.

Yep, ours do too. Avoid distraction by passengers asking for tickets and concentrate on sdo to avoid mistakes.

 

[2Dogbox]

I generally go through all of my trains including the last ones. The above poster has it spot on in the way to approach rowdy trains. You get used to ways of avoiding confrontation. Sometimes it is not easy. We have a couple of notorious trains, a certain train to Grimsby on a Saturday night is absolutely dire. You can have anything up to 30/40 rowdy aggressive men on this train who can be very intimidating. Generally on this we try and bung them all in one carriage and all the 'normal' passengers in the other one. It's not always that easy though.

I have been assaulted once, when I'd not long been on the job back at my old depot. I was punched and kicked and spat on by some lads because I tried to throw them off for not having a ticket. It was 930am by the way on a weekday by the way. . . With experience and wisdom I would have handled it totally different now.

Thinking about late night trains in general, I enjoy working late in the day, and I think confrontation and agression can appear at anytime, sometimes from the people you would least expect it to be from. Actually the worst ever time for nastiness, agression and drunks in my time on the railways was that long bank holiday weekend last year when Prince William and Kate tied the knot. I think it was a combination of the warm weather and the long bank holiday. But I found it dreadful. Every train was rowdy!

 

[BestWestern]

Surely the obligation for guards to do their job also applies at all hours?

If they're scared of late shifts, get a 9-5.

That is an utterly stupid quote from an idiot who clearly knows nothing about the job, or indeed any job requiring people skills and judgement :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well you could do an extensive survey of the network, defining what lines interact with each point on other lines and put this into a computer model, then automatically block all lines related to the last known point the train reported, for a distance defined by the last reported speed of the train.

Drivers in the blocked area or approaching it would be flashed an emergency stop signal over GSM-R and then instructed to proceed on sight, "prepared to stop short of any obstruction".

Third rail supplies on the affected lines could also be isolated automatically, perhaps leaving one line on as far as possible from the line the "lost" train was on to permit a train to reach the site and determine what is going on.

Or you could just have a Guard, which is highly likely to be both easier and cheaper!

 

[HSTEd]

Or you could just have a Guard, which is highly likely to be both easier and cheaper!

Well if labour costs keep increasing......
I am not actually anti-guard.... but if they are to survive we are going to need all new trains to have through gangways and the like to allow them to reach the entire train for ticket checks and the like.

Otherwise the economic argument for them falls to pieces...

 

[BestWestern]

Well if labour costs keep increasing......
I am not actually anti-guard.... but if they are to survive we are going to need all new trains to have through gangways and the like to allow them to reach the entire train for ticket checks and the like.

Otherwise the economic argument for them falls to pieces...

That's a very good point, but one which sadly seems to continually fall on deaf ears If Guards do go and are replaced with roving revenue staff or ATE's or whoever, the same problem will still exist.

 

[Howardh]

If people are leaving the big cities after a night out, the chances are they got there by rail and had a return ticket (what, 5p more expensive than a single?!!) and the "out" bit was checked first time round.

How many people leave a city-centre @ 22.30 using the train for the first time that day? Maybe they got a bus in earlier, or taxi, but chances are it was the train.

Maybe one solution is to allow free rail travel after 2230 on certain lines/journeys - if there's no guard check planned then cut out the middle-man!

 

[BestWestern]

If people are leaving the big cities after a night out, the chances are they got there by rail and had a return ticket (what, 5p more expensive than a single?!!) and the "out" bit was checked first time round.

How many people leave a city-centre @ 22.30 using the train for the first time that day? Maybe they got a bus in earlier, or taxi, but chances are it was the train.

Maybe one solution is to allow free rail travel after 2230 on certain lines/journeys - if there's no guard check planned then cut out the middle-man!

There are a surprising number of undesirables who can show up very late in the evening, going wherever for whatever reason. Besides, much of the trouble can occur for reasons other than tickets. Just because somebody has a ticket doesn't mean they're not going to be a prat when they've had more alcohol than they can cope with :roll: Much of the aggro I've come across on such trains comes when (politely) asking people to adjust their behaviour to an appropriate level, even if I'm not checking tickets but just patrolling the train.

I think free travel would be a very bad move, as would unstaffing of busy-ish late evening trains. A staff presence is necessary so that something can be done if it needs to be, even if it's just calling the police to the next appropriate stop. And, as I mentioned above, the public like to see a Guard on board, whether he is checking tickets or just checking people!

 

[142094]

How many stations have barriers that are left open after a certain time in the evening? Perhaps barriers should be staffed right up until the last train, or at least some high profile ticket checking once in a while for the late night services at the stations themselves, rather than letting guards do all the work.

 

[jon0844]

How many stations have barriers that are left open after a certain time in the evening? Perhaps barriers should be staffed right up until the last train, or at least some high profile ticket checking once in a while for the late night services at the stations themselves, rather than letting guards do all the work.

I am not sure why larger stations aren't like this - especially when the occasional stings at these locations until the last train often prove just how much ticketless travel there is (thus proving that there are a fair few people who haven't travelled earlier in the day and bought a return then).

I guess the problem is that very soon after you start to protect stations until closing, you find that these people stop travelling.. and then you don't catch anyone.. and then you think 'there's no point gating the station as everyone has a ticket'. Accountants will think like that, and if a lot of undesirables are merely kept off the railway then there's no extra revenue - which helps prove the argument that there's no point having gates because the revenue stayed about the same... and so it cycles!

I do think that some TOCs merely think it's not worth worrying about ticketless travel late at night and turn a blind eye to it. If they're hoping to protect their own staff, that's probably a good idea. However, it doesn't do much for the other passengers...

 

[175001]

I would be more than happy to do tickets on weekend late night services if there was sufficient security to back me up, but as most of our trains don't have CCTV, and visible security presence on trains is scarce, its a high risk situation to go out especially on some lines round here..........e.g the Pennine Ale Trail anyone?

 

[142094]

I guess the problem is that very soon after you start to protect stations until closing, you find that these people stop travelling.. and then you don't catch anyone.. and then you think 'there's no point gating the station as everyone has a ticket'. Accountants will think like that, and if a lot of undesirables are merely kept off the railway then there's no extra revenue - which helps prove the argument that there's no point having gates because the revenue stayed about the same... and so it cycles!

Yup, I can see it now - we aren't catching anyone who hasn't got a ticket or who shouldn't be travelling, so the problem must not exist anymore, and therefore we can stop doing enforcement duties late at night. Then they'll wonder why staff assaults start to increase.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I would be more than happy to do tickets on weekend late night services if there was sufficient security to back me up, but as most of our trains don't have CCTV, and visible security presence on trains is scarce, its a high risk situation to go out especially on some lines round here..........e.g the Pennine Ale Trail anyone?

That just about sums it up! My view as well (at least our 323's have cctv)

 

[jon0844]

CCTV is only so good though.. hardly much good if it is merely used to try and identify the person that murdered a member of staff.

 

[387star]

Getting the impression it is worse up north? On Southern the West Coastway things never seem too bad at night and I work nights

 

[142094]

Each area will have its good and bad spots. Up north most of the big cities are quite close together, which is why the problems start bunching up.