One hour bus ticket in London

[Deerfold]

If someone's first journey took 40/50 minutes then I see no reason why the second journey should not be chargeable. The first journey would probably have been long enough for £1.50 to be a very reasonable fare. I wonder how far £1.50 will get you in provincial cities.

It is understandable that people making a very short first journey not be charged again especially if using it only as a connection from areas poorly served by buses onto a main bus route. In the opposite direction it is a bit tricky if the first leg took a long time while the second only a very short local connection. Perhaps an alternative could be that each subsequent journey on the day be given a discount, so for example, first journey of the day £2, and each subsequent journey £1, or such like, or first journey (any mode) charged at the ordinary rate, and each subsequent journey given a 50p discount. Just a thought.

Whatever the cut-off, there will be people who lose out, and 60 minutes seems reasonable enough to me. It is not perfect, but a step in the right direction. Glad to see people are moaning already.

Your new scheme seems rather odd. Someone catching 1 bus in a day is penalised, two buses pays the same, three buses saves 50p and 4 buses the same as now as the cap will kick in.

 

[Hophead]

Presumably, though, an Oyster (and contactless card?) user will not know till the end of the day whether their second journey has been charged or not? Will the driver be in any position to identify that the second journey is within the permitted 60 minutes?

 

[JonathanH]

A one-hour bus pass (or 70 minutes) would be a bit awkward if people could then 'time-out'. How does the system (or Oyster reader) on the second bus know that it needs to start the clock again?

What is the current time-out period for bus travel?

 

[IanD]

A one-hour bus pass (or 70 minutes) would be a bit awkward if people could then 'time-out'. How does the system (or Oyster reader) on the second bus know that it needs to start the clock again?

What is the current time-out period for bus travel?

Why would it need to rest the clock? It's 60/70 minutes from the first touch in. A third touch in would trigger a new journey (until 2018).

There is currently no time out for bus travel. If you get on the bus you can stay on as long as you want. Get on another bus and it's a new journey.

 

[bb21]

Your new scheme seems rather odd. Someone catching 1 bus in a day is penalised, two buses pays the same, three buses saves 50p and 4 buses the same as now as the cap will kick in.

It's the principle of it that is more important. Exact pricing can be adjusted. It's just an idea with some numbers for illustration purposes.

Unlesss the government comes up with some money, the savings multiple journey users enjoy will have to come from somewhere. Considering the good value fares London offer, it is not unreasonable for one-off users to pay more.

 

[radamfi]

It is normal for a zonal or flat fare system to have a time limit, unless you do the traditional British thing and terminate the ticket once you get off the first bus. If you look around at fare systems around Europe you often have to revalidate/buy a new ticket once you get to the time limit if you are still on the bus. De Lijn in Belgium fairly recently changed from requiring you to finish the journey within the time to allowing you to finish the ride as long as you boarded the last bus within the time.

 

[me123]

I wonder how far £1.50 will get you in provincial cities.

Not very far. In many places, you wouldn't get on the bus for as little as £1.50. Even Lothian (generally considered to be good value) has just raised their fare to £1.60. In Aberdeen, for example, it's £2.30 for any journey of reasonable length (it's hard to ascertain just how far this gets you because that information is apparently a commercial secret, but it's gets you through between three and five "zones", whatever they may be - the cheaper 1-2 zone fare was generally never sold). Glasgow's generally £2 (again, excluding "short hop" fares which very few people would use). And don't ask about transfers - the concept does not exist in the bus industry. It's another single fare.

London's buses already provide good value, at £1.50 single and a £4.50 automatic cap for the day.

I do think the 1-hour bus fare is a sensible idea. Not all buses go where you want them to go, and it's not unreasonable to transfer. It seems inherently just that passengers are not penalised based on the whim of the route planners. This is a move that will likely increase ridership, particularly for journeys where you have to make a transfer.

The one-hour window seems perfectly reasonable to me: bear in mind that London's buses have a ridiculously high frequency and you won't be waiting in excess of ten minutes in very many places. Most people don't stay on buses for long periods of time, and even though London has some very long routes I would imagine that people don't often ride from end to end. There will be a small number of people who manage a whole return trip in this time, and will be inadvertent beneficiaries of this scheme, although I suspect the number is small and will probably rise as a result of the 1-hour bus ticket, thus generating more revenue. There will be a small number of people doing longer journeys who will still be charged twice, but it could be argued that if you are doing a longer journey you should pay more. Everyone benefits, because you will never pay more than you have now and are quite likely to pay less.

Perhaps a more efficient way to register to transfers would be to introduce a "tap out to transfer" on the buses - where you tap your Oyster/CPC/Phone on a dedicated pad at the exit doors to active a 15 minute transfer window (or whatever time is appropriate), so that your next journey within that window is free? But it's a more complex and costly exercise, which adds complexity for both bus users and the bus operators, so I can't see my idea becoming a reality.

As for the moaners - I don't think there are any bus operators outwith London that operate at the frequency TfL do, that operate with fares as low as TfL, and there are certainly none that will cap your daily fares for you, and none that will even remotely consider a transfer. London's buses are leaps and bounds ahead of what people have to endure elsewhere.

 

[robbob700]

and none that will even remotely consider a transfer.

Some operators still have transfer tickets. Ipswich Buses charge £2.00 (http://www.ipswichbuses.co.uk/tickets/fares/) which is only 10p more than the £1.90 standard fare for most journeys. On the Isle of Wight, you can buy a ticket for any through journey (however many buses that takes) though fares are VERY expensive. (£2.50, £3.50 and £4.50 for singles and NO return fares). I believe First in Dorset recently introduced a similar system although details seem to have disappeared from their website.

 

[jon0844]

Transport for London (Tfl) previously said a one-hour bus ticket will cost £50m a year."

That's one seriously expensive season ticket. Cheaper to use the tube.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That's one seriously expensive season ticket. Cheaper to use the tube.

From BBC website "The idea of a one hour "hopper" has been around for some time, it was part of the Liberal Democrats Mayoral manifesto in 2012 and Transport for London (Tfl) previously said a one-hour bus ticket will cost £50m a year."

I'm not here to sort out the BBC's syntax and punctuation Perhaps it's no mistake - a way of paying for customer assistants on NB4L?

 

[plcd1]

The review of end-to-end running was announced in a one-line paragraph in John Aldridge's excellent column on London buses and bus routes in May's 'Buses' magazine. He appears to be generally very well-informed, so I don't believe it is just speculation. He has made his views known on this subject in previous issues - he thinks, as I do, that TfL had become too ideologically wedded to all buses being 'through' buses regardless of where on the route had the most demand at any one time.

Re the timing element - thanks for confirming what I had suspected, but didn't know for sure. My next question, either to you or to anyone else, is this. How does the passenger, as opposed to the machine, know the precise time they boarded the first bus? I have a free pass at all times, so wouldn't have to concern myself with it, but unless the time is printed out somewhere I can envisage loads of arguments with drivers of the second bus, even though the matter will be outside their control. Actually, I can see this policy being very unpopular with drivers.

Thanks for the ref to Buses Mag. You have a better view of Mr Aldridge's column than I do. I had read the comment you refer to but dismissed it. I'm afraid I have seen too many errors made by him in the past so I tend to dismiss anything he says where he is clearly speculating rather than repeating news already in the public domain.

Clearly people won't know what time they boarded the first bus unless they make a mental note when they get on and look at the ETM display or their watch. I suppose TfL could trigger the printing of a paper ticket but that would mean everyone would need one "just in case" they get off and connect to another bus. As I've said it's an irrelevance really as to where you set the time limit. There will always be people who fall the wrong side of it (as with any rule). You will always get some people "pulling a fast one" with drivers to try to get something for nothing.

Another variant of potential moan will be a new form of "kissy teeth" complaining about buses running slowly or pulling into stops to lose time if buses are running early. People already moan about this but "I'm going to miss my connecting bus and be charged twice" will be a new moan for people to use. :roll:

 

[PeterC]

Cheap fares and free travel at 60 instead of 63, Londoners are so hard done by.

 

[Busaholic]

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced this is a faulty policy which will lead to many arguments/ much dissatisfaction, because it has not been thought through. If the idea is to save money for the person going to/from work and using two buses each way per day, would it not just be simpler to introduce a daily cap of two bus journeys as opposed to three? A hell of a lot less complicated, and probably not causing much extra revenue lost compared to the proposed new policy, and saving a lot of hassle and complications. Many of those who use tube/rail plus a bus journey for their commute effectively, because of the daily cap, already pay nothing for the bus element.

 

[me123]

A similar scheme operates successfully in many other cities; including Amsterdam, Paris, Brussels, Rome, Berlin, and I'm sure many other cities too. I fail to see why it shouldn't work in London.

 

[jon0844]

You could perhaps advertise it as an hour but actually set it with some grace period (5 or 10 minutes). Sure, people will get to know - but so what? It would be advertised as one hour, so nobody can complain if they don't occasionally get to take advantage of it being 70 minutes.

 

[Busaholic]

A similar scheme operates successfully in many other cities; including Amsterdam, Paris, Brussels, Rome, Berlin, and I'm sure many other cities too. I fail to see why it shouldn't work in London.

I'm not au fait with current pricing policies in those cities, but I seriously doubt that any of them have such disparities between bus fares and rail/metro/tram fares. The flat bus fare could not be simpler, whereas we have to have experts to guide us through the complexities of the rest - even our limited trams have to have special rules to deal with the situation at Wimbledon station! Please do not wish simplicity away, because before you know it the bureaucracy will become staggering. Just introduce a cap, otherwise you will get a situation where a regular journey made by someone will routinely cost twice as much in one direction as it does in the other. If you doubt this, I can give you chapter and verse.

 

[radamfi]

I'm not au fait with current pricing policies in those cities, but I seriously doubt that any of them have such disparities between bus fares and rail/metro/tram fares.

If your beef is that bus fares are not integrated with other modes of transport then I can understand that. In most European countries you usually pay the same for a trip from A to B regardless whether it is direct or have to change between bus/tram and metro, and sometimes also national rail. Paris is a bit of an anomaly as there are no free transfers there between bus/tram and metro but you still get free transfers between buses or between buses and trams (as long as you don't use the same route twice) and they have a 90 minute time limit there.

 

[Dent]

If the idea is to save money for the person going to/from work and using two buses each way per day, would it not just be simpler to introduce a daily cap of two bus journeys as opposed to three? A hell of a lot less complicated, and probably not causing much extra revenue lost compared to the proposed new policy, and saving a lot of hassle and complications.

One usage case that will benefit from the current proposal, but not from a daily cap of two buses, is people who travel one way by bus and the other by another mode. I've done this myself quite a few times - travelled out by tube/train when the outward journey is time-critical, and returned by bus when the return journey is not. In this case I would have benefited from the free bus transfer.

Many of those who use tube/rail plus a bus journey for their commute effectively, because of the daily cap, already pay nothing for the bus element.

This is not related to this thread, but someone making one return journey per day by tube would not reach the daily cap, so they would have to pay more if they have to make a bus journey as well.

 

[Busaholic]

This is not related to this thread, but someone making one return journey per day by tube would not reach the daily cap, so they would have to pay more if they have to make a bus journey as well.

Lucky tube passengers, that they can often get to their ultimate destination in one journey, maybe changing lines once or twice. Not so lucky the many tens of thousands who have to go through barriers at Victoria, Waterloo etc from their NR trains and go catch a tube: if they caught a bus to get to their local NR station, then many of them would reach the daily cap.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If your beef is that bus fares are not integrated with other modes of transport then I can understand that. In most European countries you usually pay the same for a trip from A to B regardless whether it is direct or have to change between bus/tram and metro, and sometimes also national rail. Paris is a bit of an anomaly as there are no free transfers there between bus/tram and metro but you still get free transfers between buses or between buses and trams (as long as you don't use the same route twice) and they have a 90 minute time limit there.

With a 90 minute time limit, and given that Paris is a much smaller city in area than Greater London, you could complete any journey by bus there well within that time. Amsterdam, where I lived for a short time, is even smaller, unless it has expanded dramatically in the decades since. In any case, trams mean no traffic jams - in my experience, service was either perfect or non-existent (the latter when the tracks were blocked, which used to happen rather too often in my experience).

My beef, as you put it, is that Delay Repay on the railways will become Delay Pay Double on the buses if the current idea comes to fruition without amendment.

 

[radamfi]

With a 90 minute time limit, and given that Paris is a much smaller city in area than Greater London, you could complete any journey by bus there well within that time.

The t+ ticket is valid throughout the Île-de-France region which has a population of 12 million (compared with 8 million in Greater London) so you could in theory take bus/tram rides across the metropolis that takes several hours. Paris "proper" is only a small part of the Paris urban area.

 

[Busaholic]

The t+ ticket is valid throughout the Île-de-France region which has a population of 12 million (compared with 8 million in Greater London) so you could in theory take bus/tram rides across the metropolis that takes several hours. Paris "proper" is only a small part of the Paris urban area.

You confirm for me that Parisians, indeed the French in general, get a much better deal from their authorities on the whole than we do in this country. I do think that a 90 minute transfer time would prove a lot less troublesome than the hour proposed, but I still believe that a 2-bus daily cap would be preferable. My last words on the subject on here for the time being, you'll be glad to hear.

 

[Deerfold]

You confirm for me that Parisians, indeed the French in general, get a much better deal from their authorities on the whole than we do in this country.

Though bear in mind that apart from very low earners and very small companies taxation of both people and companies is significantly higher than in the UK.

Some would see that as a worse deal (though I'd prefer to pay a bit more tax and have better public transport and local services).

 

[Busaholic]

Though bear in mind that apart from very low earners and very small companies taxation of both people and companies is significantly higher than in the UK.

Some would see that as a worse deal (though I'd prefer to pay a bit more tax and have better public transport and local services).

It depends what you count as taxation. Council Tax is much higher than the equivalent property taxes in France (I'm not including the super-rich who pay peanuts for their mansions in London based on valuations decades-old), the business rates small shopkeepers like myself pay at present likewise in comparison, and electric/gas bills are also much higher here. Public transport is also much cheaper, but that's where I came in.

 

[Deerfold]

It depends what you count as taxation. Council Tax is much higher than the equivalent property taxes in France (I'm not including the super-rich who pay peanuts for their mansions in London based on valuations decades-old), the business rates small shopkeepers like myself pay at present likewise in comparison, and electric/gas bills are also much higher here. Public transport is also much cheaper, but that's where I came in.

I was primarily counting Income Tax and Corporation Tax. Income taxes vary but are generally higher in France. Corporation Tax for most companies is 33% in France, 20% here, though very small companies pay 15% in France. VAT is very similar.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Presumably, though, an Oyster (and contactless card?) user will not know till the end of the day whether their second journey has been charged or not? Will the driver be in any position to identify that the second journey is within the permitted 60 minutes?

Not only readers communicate in real time with the central server but the oyster itself has some memory which is written when you validate.
There are several ticketing systems based on time out... a simple way is just to save into the ticket the last boarding time

 

[berneyarms]

Here in Dublin we have the LEAP90 discount which works well.

Users of the LEAP card (similar to Oyster) get a €1 discount off a second bus fare if that starts within 90 minutes of the first. This then becomes a rolling 90 minutes so it's possible to do three or four journeys and get a €1 discount off each thereby reducing your fares below the appropriate daily cap.

90 minutes is more appropriate here given the long nature of many of our city bus routes (we are much more bus dependent here).

The €1 discount applies to bus/bus trips, bus/tram trips, bus/rail trips and tram/rail trips.

There is now talk of introducing a 90 minute unlimited travel fare, something we used to have on the buses before LEAP arrived.

 

[londonbridge]

http://www.itv.com/news/london/2016-09-05/one-hour-london-bus-hopper-fare-to-begin-on-september-12/

"Travelling on a bus in London will become cheaper and more convenient for millions of Londoners from next week as the one hour ‘Hopper’ fare will begin on Monday 12 September, the Mayor of London Sadiq Khan has announced.

The new fare will mean an estimated 30m bus journeys currently costing £1.50 will now become free every year.

From Monday it will allow passengers to change onto another bus or tram for free within one hour of touching in at the start of their journey. It will be automatically given to anyone who uses ‘pay as you go’ with Oyster or contactless payment cards.

Using the ‘Hopper’ fare, passengers could make extended journeys across London for just £1.50 for a standard adult fare if the second journey begins within an hour. These include:

Victoria Station to Wembley stadium using the Route 16 to Edgware Road station and then changing onto a route 18 to Wembley Central station.
London Bridge to East Croydon using the route 133 to Streatham and then changing at Streatham Hill station onto a 109 to West Croydon.

The fare will also be given to passengers switching from bus to tram, tram to bus or tram to tram within an hour as well.

TfL says it is now working on delivering unlimited bus and tram transfers within one hour, which is not currently possible due to limits with the existing technology. Plans are for TfL to deliver unlimited bus and tram journeys in an hour from 2018.

Fares in London have risen for eight years in a row – and for people who have to change buses to get to work, the system simply isn’t fair.

The new ‘Hopper’ ticket means 30 million bus journeys every year will now become free – journeys that currently cost people £1.50.

Alongside our commitment to freeze all TfL fares, the start of the Hopper next Monday is a key part of our plans to make it more affordable to live and work in London.

– Mayor of London Sadiq Khan

In addition to this, from 2018, passengers who travel on a Tube or train between their two or more bus or tram journeys will also be eligible for the Hopper fare.

The ‘Hopper’ fare will further encourage people across London to switch from their cars back to public transport – helping reduce congestion and harmful pollution.

London already has Europe's largest fleet of hybrid buses and both the Mayor and TfL are committed to further reducing vehicle emissions through new ‘Low Emission Bus Zones’ and procuring only hybrid or zero-emission double-decker buses from 2018"

As you may know, this transfer fare was already in existence on the tram, but the window is seventy minutes from the first touch. If they're reducing the tram transfer window to one hour to match the introduction of this fare on buses, i suppose it proves the old saying that you don't get something for nothing still holds true.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Excellent news, though many years late of course, given that German Verkehrsverbuende have had such ticketing for 30+ years.

Next it's time to move onto having just two sets of fares, ideally - a flat rate one hour bus journey ticket, and zonal fares for use of all modes in any combination for a single journey.

 

[plcd1]

Excellent news, though many years late of course, given that German Verkehrsverbuende have had such ticketing for 30+ years.

Next it's time to move onto having just two sets of fares, ideally - a flat rate one hour bus journey ticket, and zonal fares for use of all modes in any combination for a single journey.

the ITV press coverage has missed out a rather crucial new feature being developed for 2018 that is mentioned in the Mayor's Press Release

I quote the relevant bit

Customers who travel on a Tube or train between their two bus or tram journeys will not currently be eligible for the Hopper fare. But from 2018, passengers who travel on a Tube or train between their two or more bus or tram journeys will also be eligible for the ‘Hopper’ fare.

That looks to me to a step towards multi modal single journey through ticketing at one overall fare. Not the "full monty" obviously but interesting nonetheless.

And one other little nightmare (and one which wasn't there earlier I'm sure) is this

The ‘Hopper’ fare will not be applied at the time of travel to journeys by Oyster customers exiting the Tram network at Wimbledon and subsequently catching a bus. Oyster customers who “miss out” in this way at Wimbledon will be sent automatic refunds.

I'm not surprised by it but SWT strike again!! Not saying it's their fault but having the tram inside a rail / tube paid area really does cause complications. I assume people using Contactless will never see a charge if they catch a bus at Wimbledon having exited the tram system as the "black box" charge calculator will automatically waive the fare if the journey time parameter is met.

 

[Romilly]

The 1-hour hopper bus fare in London will be available from Monday 12th September 2016.