One hour bus ticket in London

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see how you avoid that unless you charge everyone £4.50 and make every ticket a day rover or you just allow endless transfers without any time limit and thereby destroy the revenue flow for TfL buses.

It's a real shame we didn't implement "touch out" on buses like just about every other country with smartcard payment has done. That ship has sailed now, I'd say, but if we had this would have worked much better - touch in within say 30 minutes of touching out = continuation, if the bus you then touch in on is late then the delay is added to the 30 minutes automatically.

 

[transmanche]

And of course it hasn't taken TfL long to use the hopper fare as an excuse to change and divert bus services, arguing that people won't have to pay extra if they have to change buses to complete their journeys.

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/routes-13-82-113-139-189

That's an odd one, basically re-routeing the 13 so it duplicates the 82 and then scrapping the 82. Why not just scrap the 13 instead!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bus route 205? Goes from Euston to Bishopsgate and Aldgate direct. A lot of the City is within a short stroll of Bishopsgate or Aldgate.

Has it returned to actually serving Aldgate? Last time I used it it ended up off a long way north meaning a long walk.

Not a lot of use for the bit of the City near the river, though.

 

[transmanche]

Has it returned to actually serving Aldgate? Last time I used it it ended up off a long way north meaning a long walk.

Not a lot of use for the bit of the City near the river, though.

Then a short walk along Euston Road means you can catch the 17 (or the 45, 46, 63 and 214).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then a short walk along Euston Road means you can catch the 17 (or the 45, 46, 63 and 214).

Given the frequency of the 73 etc it is much quicker to take a bus than a walk. And we are back to being charged twice for making one journey. One of the many reasons I strongly support this initiative.

(I don't want a direct bus in particular, I just want not to be financially penalised for not having one)

 

[plcd1]

Has it returned to actually serving Aldgate? Last time I used it it ended up off a long way north meaning a long walk.

Not a lot of use for the bit of the City near the river, though.

Yep when the Aldgate works completed it was rerouted that way and not via Commercial Rd which it used as an emergency diversion when delays at Aldgate become unsustainable.

Now you're changing the definition of the City! I didn't say it solved every issue just that it served part directly and part was certainly walkable with ease. Let's face it a lot of people walk in the City.

 

[plcd1]

It's a real shame we didn't implement "touch out" on buses like just about every other country with smartcard payment has done. That ship has sailed now, I'd say, but if we had this would have worked much better - touch in within say 30 minutes of touching out = continuation, if the bus you then touch in on is late then the delay is added to the 30 minutes automatically.

I'm not sure it's "sailed" completely. Short term then yes I agree. However a point will come when the flat fare for short hop journeys is too expensive and something has to be done to sort that out or else people face disproportionate travel costs. Also, at some point, a politician will be faced with having to "sort out" London's bus fares. The flat fare got through because it was politically convenient for Ken and helped the Oyster technology launch. It's also supported the introduction of the cashless bus (originally a Ken era policy if you look back in old TfL board papers from that time).

I suspect a Mayor will have to introduce exit validation on buses but we need a new technology "platform" on the buses that can support it. It'd need to be linked into I-Bus or similar so exit validators only go live when the bus nears a stop (as per Singapore). We know TfL are working to "dismantle" I-Bus into modules that can be competitively supplied to get round the supplier "lock in" they have now. Speccing a flexible system that could have exit validators added in later is pretty simple really. It would be the hardware and installation cost that would be the killer plus the complexity on "open boarding buses" - how do you install another three validators on NB4Ls and "Red Arrow" single deckers??

The idea of exit validation is, I think, a saleable proposition if you link it to clever charging (your proposal) and more affordable fares even if they are not flat. I also think TfL would now be able to play an appropriate business value on the much better journey data they'd get. It's clear they see a value in what Oyster data can tell them for planning and operational purposes so better data for buses could be hugely beneficial.

 

[Bletchleyite]

the complexity on "open boarding buses" - how do you install another three validators on NB4Ls and "Red Arrow" single deckers??

Perhaps we could just remove open boarding on NB4Ls? Most people seem to follow convention and board at the front anyway, and effectively having one staircase for up and one for down would work quite well.

The Red Arrows operate only in Zone 1 and are mostly used by regulars so these could retain a touch-in only system.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm not sure it's "sailed" completely. Short term then yes I agree. However a point will come when the flat fare for short hop journeys is too expensive and something has to be done to sort that out or else people face disproportionate travel costs. Also, at some point, a politician will be faced with having to "sort out" London's bus fares. The flat fare got through because it was politically convenient for Ken and helped the Oyster technology launch. It's also supported the introduction of the cashless bus (originally a Ken era policy if you look back in old TfL board papers from that time).

I suspect a Mayor will have to introduce exit validation on buses but we need a new technology "platform" on the buses that can support it. It'd need to be linked into I-Bus or similar so exit validators only go live when the bus nears a stop (as per Singapore). We know TfL are working to "dismantle" I-Bus into modules that can be competitively supplied to get round the supplier "lock in" they have now. Speccing a flexible system that could have exit validators added in later is pretty simple really. It would be the hardware and installation cost that would be the killer plus the complexity on "open boarding buses" - how do you install another three validators on NB4Ls and "Red Arrow" single deckers??

The idea of exit validation is, I think, a saleable proposition if you link it to clever charging (your proposal) and more affordable fares even if they are not flat. I also think TfL would now be able to play an appropriate business value on the much better journey data they'd get. It's clear they see a value in what Oyster data can tell them for planning and operational purposes so better data for buses could be hugely beneficial.

When 50 passengers who have boarded a no. 35 or 47 bus at Shoreditch or Liverpool Street then all get off the bus together at London Bridge in the evening rush hour, how long will it take them all to touch out from the centre exit door validator? Trials would be the only way of establishing this, and I'm not pretending to know the answer, but it won't just be a matter of a few extra seconds. Flat fare was the answer to the question 'how do we replace conductor operation in Central London without bringing traffic to a complete halt?', together with the introduction of bendybuses, which brought their own problems but speed of entry/exit was not amongst them, being at record levels for opo buses in this country.

 

[plcd1]

When 50 passengers who have boarded a no. 35 or 47 bus at Shoreditch or Liverpool Street then all get off the bus together at London Bridge in the evening rush hour, how long will it take them all to touch out from the centre exit door validator? Trials would be the only way of establishing this, and I'm not pretending to know the answer, but it won't just be a matter of a few extra seconds. Flat fare was the answer to the question 'how do we replace conductor operation in Central London without bringing traffic to a complete halt?', together with the introduction of bendybuses, which brought their own problems but speed of entry/exit was not amongst them, being at record levels for opo buses in this country.

I agree that's an issue and it's replicated across the London network all day, every day. There are always busy stops even on Sundays. While I accept that Singapore is culturally "more disciplined" than London all I will say is that they have massive loadings on their system with many feeder services from estates which feed MRT stations so you get full double deckers having to decant passengers. They all need to validate and they do. One special feature is that the entry validator at the front door can be set to exit at such stops thus allowing a two door exit flow from the vehicle. And before you go "I wasn't referring to a terminus stop" there are obviously other busy stops in Singapore where they cope with entry and exit flows simultaneously. I've not especially noticed that bus stop dwell times are overly long in Singapore or worse than in London.

There would obviously be a learning curve in London, possibly a considerable one in some places in the City, but I think the day will come when it is required. There will also no doubt be a large fare deduction on entry with the balance being credited back on exit as a fraud avoidance / incentive to validate mechanism just as at LU / rail ticket gates today.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Singapore operate that "incentive" scheme - you pay maximum fare with no refund possible unless you touch out. London is surprisingly lenient over this in having "unresolved journeys" rather than just billing the highest fare.

 

[Simon11]

I've been working on a bus bid in Singapore, for the last few months.

I can see the reason for having to tap out in Singapore, since the weather is very humid, people are more likely to make shorter journeys, but it just adds additional journey time especially if someone forgets to get their card ready.

I'm glad they haven't introduced this in London, it would be even worse.

It would only be worth doing, once technology improves, so there is no need to tap on and off, the technology knows when you are on the bus and can then deduct as required (but this raises new challenges as well).

 

[PeterC]

However a point will come when the flat fare for short hop journeys is too expensive and something has to be done to sort that out or else people face disproportionate travel costs.

How long before there are compliants that it unfair that somebody who only wants to make a 10 minute journey has to pay for an hour?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see the reason for having to tap out in Singapore, since the weather is very humid, people are more likely to make shorter journeys, but it just adds additional journey time especially if someone forgets to get their card ready.

I must admit I like that as a possible way to charge a higher fare to those inconsiderate people who don't realise that, unless you have a disability precluding it, it is right to have the card (or, outside London, some cash) ready in your hand ready to use before even approaching a bus, TVM or ticket barrier. They cause huge amounts of delay.

It's the same people who are taken aback at the idea of having to pay for their supermarket shopping at the end of the transaction, and have to spend 30 seconds searching their handbag or pocket for their purse or wallet and a further 30 seconds selecting which card they intend to use. Get your card out and place it by the machine when you pass the checkout operator, then you're ready to go.

 

[Mojo]

Singapore operate that "incentive" scheme - you pay maximum fare with no refund possible unless you touch out. London is surprisingly lenient over this in having "unresolved journeys" rather than just billing the highest fare.

Huh? That's exactly what an unresolved journey is. If you touch in and fail to touch out (or touch out without having touched in) within zones 1-9 it will charge you £7.70 peak, or £5.30 off peak, which is the maximum fare for a mixed mode journey in zones 1-9 (except for Swanley or Dartford).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Huh? That's exactly what an unresolved journey is. If you touch in and fail to touch out (or touch out without having touched in) within zones 1-9 it will charge you £7.70 peak, or £5.30 off peak, which is the maximum fare for a mixed mode journey in zones 1-9 (except for Swanley or Dartford).

But an unresolved journey can be resolved by calling the helpline and telling them what you did.

I'd propose this *not* to be possible - i.e. you play the game correctly or you take a financial hit. That's the case in most such systems. Only London seems to let you correct it retrospectively.

 

[Mojo]

But an unresolved journey can be resolved by calling the helpline and telling them what you did.

I'd propose this *not* to be possible - i.e. you play the game correctly or you take a financial hit. That's the case in most such systems. Only London seems to let you correct it retrospectively.

lt can be resolved at stations too; but only if you can explain what you did. lt won't just be resolved for no reason.

 

[transmanche]

That's the case in most such systems. Only London seems to let you correct it retrospectively.

Nexus (Tyne & Wear PTE) let you do so with their Pop PAYG card, but you are restricted to just one 'correction' every 30 days.

 

[radamfi]

But an unresolved journey can be resolved by calling the helpline and telling them what you did.

I'd propose this *not* to be possible - i.e. you play the game correctly or you take a financial hit. That's the case in most such systems. Only London seems to let you correct it retrospectively.

The Dutch also let you fix unresolved journeys online and of course they have smartcard usage nationwide. Also the Southern KeyGo system let's you fix incomplete journeys.

Regarding touch out, I don't think that would be a significant problem. It has been in operation in busy trams in the Netherlands for getting on for a decade. Also on the ridiculously busy three part bendy buses in Utrecht, although free boarding applies here too. At intermediate stops people touch out at the same time as others touch in so there is little lost time there. Also, a lot of people touch out before the bus or tram stops, enabling them to walk off without delay.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It'd be nice if we could sidestep this by going straight to some method that automatically tracks when people get off the bus

 

[ag51ruk]

Sydney requires you to touch off with Opal cards as they have distance based fares on buses - they don't have separate validators, you can use the same one (at the front door) and if you are already touched on it touches off instead. I haven't particularly noticed delays in people getting off buses, although it is helped by the tendency to use both front and rear doors to exit rather than just the rear doors.

Their system is also operated by Cubic so presumably has some commonality with Oyster. They have some very complex rules around transfers/what comprises one"trip" and while I wouldn't suggest copying that system, it does show what is technically possible.

 

[jon0844]

Singapore operate that "incentive" scheme - you pay maximum fare with no refund possible unless you touch out. London is surprisingly lenient over this in having "unresolved journeys" rather than just billing the highest fare.

Why not have validators at bus stops that people can tap on at their own leisure afterwards?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It'd be nice if we could sidestep this by going straight to some method that automatically tracks when people get off the bus

Unless the bus is a Faraday cage there is the risk that people would be billed for journeys they hadn't even undertaken. It's the same reason why you have to touch in/out at Tube barriers - the technology would actually allow a card to be read while still in your pocket.

 

[PermitToTravel]

But a card won't be present at two stops, will it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But a card won't be present at two stops, will it?

If you're walking down a road with multiple bus stops and stray a little near the bus a couple of times as it crawls in traffic at walking pace, it could well do.

 

[matt_world2004]

I'm not sure it's "sailed" completely. Short term then yes I agree. However a point will come when the flat fare for short hop journeys is too expensive and something has to be done to sort that out or else people face disproportionate travel costs. Also, at some point, a politician will be faced with having to "sort out" London's bus fares. The flat fare got through because it was politically convenient for Ken and helped the Oyster technology launch. It's also supported the introduction of the cashless bus (originally a Ken era policy if you look back in old TfL board papers from that time).

I suspect a Mayor will have to introduce exit validation on buses but we need a new technology "platform" on the buses that can support it. It'd need to be linked into I-Bus or similar so exit validators only go live when the bus nears a stop (as per Singapore). We know TfL are working to "dismantle" I-Bus into modules that can be competitively supplied to get round the supplier "lock in" they have now. Speccing a flexible system that could have exit validators added in later is pretty simple really. It would be the hardware and installation cost that would be the killer plus the complexity on "open boarding buses" - how do you install another three validators on NB4Ls and "Red Arrow" single deckers??

The idea of exit validation is, I think, a saleable proposition if you link it to clever charging (your proposal) and more affordable fares even if they are not flat. I also think TfL would now be able to play an appropriate business value on the much better journey data they'd get. It's clear they see a value in what Oyster data can tell them for planning and operational purposes so better data for buses could be hugely beneficial.

There wont be exit validation on buses anymore , the operational priority is getting the dwell time to a minimum which when people have to fiddle around with their oyster card exiting a bus it will not happen,

 

[transmanche]

It would be the hardware and installation cost that would be the killer plus the complexity on "open boarding buses" - how do you install another three validators on NB4Ls and "Red Arrow" single deckers??

Why would you need to install another set of validators on 'free-boarding' buses? The existing set of validators could be used for touching-in and touching out. Just like the standalone yellow validators you see at tube stations.

 

[bb21]

Sounds like a solution looking for a problem.

"Short hop" journeys shouldn't be encouraged anyway. Keep the flat fare, which is more than reasonable in any case for £1.50.

The "one hour" ticket is a pretty good compromise. If people are really that desperately worried about running out of time, make it one fixed transfer (no transferring between the same numbered routes) and give it a generous time allowance, say 3 hours, and pretty much job done.

Whatever system is put in place there will always be people moaning.

 

[plcd1]

There wont be exit validation on buses anymore , the operational priority is getting the dwell time to a minimum which when people have to fiddle around with their oyster card exiting a bus it will not happen,

No one was saying it will have to happen tomorrow or even in 3 years time. I was pondering a future where fares will be artificially low - assuming a 4 year fares freeze is delivered - and where the scale of subsidy will be far too high. If a future Tory Mayor is elected does anyone think they will not shove the fares up in order to try to restore financial stability? I was pondering possibilities not making firm predictions. You can't just airily say something will never happen. The "impossible" quite often happens - usually when it is not expected. You can throw all the "logic" you like at a situation but when you have a politically controlled transport system all sorts of things can happen. I won't recite a list but there's plenty of evidence in London's transport history going back up to 60 years.

 

[infobleep]

Cash is a massively inconvenient and costly method of payment for public transport use; London has got it right in my view and it doesn't seem to be causing any significant problems.

As for taxis and cash, we all know why they like cash. Our local companies now all do card payments via the app, and allegedly some drivers are refusing those bookings. The cynic in me knows why they are doing so; this should be breach of contract and lead to termination of their contract with the dispatch company.

With prepay cards and the likes there is no reason anyone of any age should be unable to hold a payment card; the old "might run up an overdraft" argument disappears if you could do an authorisation in a fraction of a second via a mobile connection.

I just wish it was the case that Oyster or contactless is cheaper at all times, father than the current situation where there are periods where paper tickets are cheaper. It can be confusing. Perhaps it doesn't really matter as it's all fairly cheap anyway.

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