One person missing from the group travel ticket

[34D]

On a similar note, I was messing around with the TVM at Todmorden about a week ago when changing trains there and with a little time to kill...requesting (eventually...it is a Parkeon so its naff to start with!) I asked for a single to Dewsbury...selected to purchase an Anytime Day Single (pre-10am to no YP discount) and it popped up with a cheaper alternative being available......a Concession Single........

This is interesting (and perhaps worthy of its own thread).

I actually thought this prompt had disappeared from their TVMs.

For the benefit of others, a concession single in WY is for the holders of Metro issued ENCTS bus passes (get train fare at half price).

 

[LexyBoy]

Do many TOCs encourage people to buy in advance, bar the long distance Intercity operators?

I would say so - of course few people buy in advance for local journeys but pretty much all TOCs promote their own websites (and by extension buying in advance), and for many people it's not clear whether the price will be the same at a different date or if not bought online. Plus of course there's TheSheepLine telling everyone to buy in advance.

 

[KentonCanary]

Interesting thread, thanks to all who have contributed.

A few years ago when I helped to book trains to Norwich for the football supporters club I was the travel officer for we used to use the KingsX / Cambridge / Norwich route when there were rail replacement buses on the Liverpool Street line.

We used to get quite a few travelling and I bought the GS4 tickets in blocks of four. If for example we had 33 travelling I used to buy 8xGS4 plus a one more full fare. But if there were 34 I would buy 9xGS4 it was the same price as 8xGS4 plus two singles. Sometimes we would find a stray football supporter who could join the group so it saved everyone a few quid. If not we’d still paid the same price.

So was this contrary to the rules or not? I’m not 100% sure?

Cheers
Tim

 

[island]

Technically it isn't allowed. An issue is rarely made of it though.

 

[bb21]

Definitely contrary to the rules, but many guards would show discretion when all of the tickets are presented, especially if asked before boarding.

 

[KentonCanary]

Thanks Island and BB21 for replies. On the outbound we always sat in a group but coming back on the two carriage trains from Norwich it was quite difficult as it got very crowded after the game. This, the additional time it took, plus delays in the outbound which caused the connection at Cambridge to be missed has resulted in us not using this route any more.

But this is good to know if we do use it in future.

 

[LexyBoy]

This is what I find to be particularly unfair in the missing passenger scenario:
Option 1:- Passengers are honest and show GS3/GS4 tickets for 2/3 passengers. Outcome to passengers = risk of being charged new tickets / penalty fared. Outcome to TOC = no revenue loss OR extra revenue but peeved customers.
Option 2:- Passengers find another person to be the missing GroupSaver - not allowed but mostly undetectable. Outcome to passengers = no risk of being charged. Outcome to TOC = potential lost revenue from new GS-er.

Most guards are reasonable and will accept the tickets if all are shown, but unfortunately that ain't the rules.

 

[jon0844]

Thanks Island and BB21 for replies. On the outbound we always sat in a group but coming back on the two carriage trains from Norwich it was quite difficult as it got very crowded after the game. This, the additional time it took, plus delays in the outbound which caused the connection at Cambridge to be missed has resulted in us not using this route any more.

But this is good to know if we do use it in future.

I'd hope discretion would be shown if people were split up when trains were quite obviously packed, or there were any other delays or issues.

For a group of 33 people, you can presumably buy group tickets (for 10 or more people) and I wonder what the T&Cs are then - as in there being a greater chance of one person out of 10, 20, 30 or whatever not turning up. And I believe these must be purchased in advance too.

 

[34D]

What about people who buy two tickets so they get extra space

 

[Haywain]

What about people who buy two tickets so they get extra space

Having two tickets does not entitle occupation of two seats by one person.

 

[Deerfold]

Having two tickets does not entitle occupation of two seats by one person.

Or even one seat - unless they have a reservation. Of course 1 person cannot simultaneously occupy two reserved seats.

 

[IanD]

Of course 1 person cannot simultaneously occupy two reserved seats.

Of course they can, just lie down across them.

 

[sheff1]

Of course they can, just lie down across them.

Some do just that, even if they have not reserved either seat ..... or even bought a ticket at all

 

[reb0118]

What about people who buy two tickets so they get extra space

Having two tickets does not entitle occupation of two seats by one person.

Are you sure?

 

[Llanigraham]

It's in The Sun, it must be true!!

 

[34D]

Having two tickets does not entitle occupation of two seats by one person.

True. But I can easily imagine wealthy people buying 4 seats, reserving a table of four, when only two are people and the other two seats are bags.

 

[455driver]

True. But I can easily imagine wealthy people buying 4 seats, reserving a table of four, when only two are people and the other two seats are bags.

Had somebody try that trick on the 1220 Waterloo to Exeter (I was on my way home after a safety brief), they were using groupsave4 tickets as well, the train was packed and so I asked them to move their bags so some of the standing passengers could have a seat, they refused and, waving the tickets at me, said "we are entitled to 4 seats and there is nothing you can do about it". I walked off down the train to find the guard, explained the situation to him and he promptly explained to them that they were in breach of the terms of the ticket (and explained why), sold them 2 full price tickets and told them if they didnt move their bags to the designated area (they would fit on the overhead racks) they would be removed at Woking. Cue 2 very unhappy passengers, 2 happy ones who could now sit down, and lots of other passengers laughing at the 2 unhappy ones, shame!

 

[KentonCanary]

I'd hope discretion would be shown if people were split up when trains were quite obviously packed, or there were any other delays or issues.

For a group of 33 people, you can presumably buy group tickets (for 10 or more people) and I wonder what the T&Cs are then - as in there being a greater chance of one person out of 10, 20, 30 or whatever not turning up. And I believe these must be purchased in advance too.

We did use group travel on a pre-agreed deal when it was available on trips from Liverpool Street, quite often the group was up to 50. From memory we were never asked re numbers on the day as I would speak to the inspector, having been the custodian of the master ticket . All the group had their individual tickets. If someone didn’t turn up, as the tickets had been paid for in advance this was never challenged. (Perhaps it might have been if we only had say 7 travelling on Group of 10 but this did not occur)

As part of the group travel deal the tickets had to be purchased a few days in advance.

When I first took on the travel officer role (2006) I did enquire on more than one occasion about a group travel deal from KX / Cambridge / Norwich when there were rail replacement buses on the Liverpool Street line. But as this involved both FCC + NXEA it worked out much more expensive than using GS4. (We used KX as the trains to Cambridge were direct and quicker than from Liverpool Street)

What we did with GS4 was to split the journey at Cambridge so this reduced the cost from a max individual return fare of £40++ to around £17.50 each. This was still more expensive and longer than our regular journey but better than a bus, especially if it involved a change at Ipswich.

 

[Tetchytyke]

True. But I can easily imagine wealthy people buying 4 seats, reserving a table of four, when only two are people and the other two seats are bags.

So can I.

The Manual states very clearly:

A seat cannot be reserved if no passenger is to occupy it, even if an extra ticket is purchased.

Proving this is, of course, very different.

 

[Flamingo]

If the station has been passed, and nobody is in the seat, the reservation is removed and the bag also removed, at least on my trains that's how it works.

The passenger with the "spare" ticket is advised to either write in for a refund, or write in and complain about me, depending on the ticket type held...

 

[bb21]

If the station has been passed, and nobody is in the seat, the reservation is removed and the bag also removed, at least on my trains that's how it works.

The passenger with the "spare" ticket is advised to either write in for a refund, or write in and complain about me, depending on the ticket type held...

If only all your colleagues had the same attitude.

 

[Flamingo]

If only all your colleagues had the same attitude.

My boss would go spare, he already is snowed under with letters about me.

To be fair, most of them are compliments!

 

[sheff1]

To be fair, most of them are complements!

But not about your spelling .

 

[Flamingo]

But not about your spelling .

You try typing on this tiny phone keyboard

 

[34D]

Had somebody try that trick on the 1220 Waterloo to Exeter (I was on my way home after a safety brief), they were using groupsave4 tickets as well, the train was packed and so I asked them to move their bags so some of the standing passengers could have a seat, they refused and, waving the tickets at me, said "we are entitled to 4 seats and there is nothing you can do about it". I walked off down the train to find the guard, explained the situation to him and he promptly explained to them that they were in breach of the terms of the ticket (and explained why), sold them 2 full price tickets and told them if they didnt move their bags to the designated area (they would fit on the overhead racks) they would be removed at Woking. Cue 2 very unhappy passengers, 2 happy ones who could now sit down, and lots of other passengers laughing at the 2 unhappy ones, shame!

Great to hear. Thanks

 

[Goatboy]

It seems a special kind of daft that a Groupsave 3 is cheaper than tickets for 2 anyway. I can begrudgingly accept the concept of a Groupsave being the same price as 2 people travelling but LESS?!

 

[island]

To be honest that is more a function of the way discounts are calculated as they can only be a whole percentage discount. 3 for the price of 2 should be 33.33333% off each ticket, so instead they make it 34% in favour of the customer.

 

[blondedolphin]

My brother has the tickets he went to the station and was directed where to appeal. He is expecting to at least get the price of my share of the ticket back so we'll have to wait and see

 

[DarloRich]

as a useful reference point my local company (London Midland) have always explained the terms of group save to passengers.

If i buy from the guard on the Marston Vale line he will always explain you must travel together and if i buy form the booking office at Bletchely or MK they always explain you must travel together or the ticket is invalid.

Perhaps that would be sensible best practice for others to follow.

 

[Haywain]

My brother has the tickets he went to the station and was directed where to appeal. He is expecting to at least get the price of my share of the ticket back so we'll have to wait and see

As mentioned earlier in this thread, a refund needs to be requested, rather than appealing against something.