Open undercarriage doors - dangerous or not?

[hexagon789]

Caught a train into town today and as it was pulling into the station and loud banging and scraping sound could be heard. I saw that a cabinet door on the leading coach was open and swinging about, scraping the platform edge as it went.

I told the guard and he got off the train, presumably to have a look, and after a minute or two delay we set off again and so I assumed the issue was resolved.

However, on my return journey, lo and behold it's the same unit again and the cabinet door is still open, only now it's very scratched and slightly bent.

Is this not considered particularly dangerous then? I ask as I seem to recall a door on a cabinet under a Western Class 52 was responsible for a serious derailment in 1973 (?), it caught a points lever and diverted the train onto an adjacent line causing it to derail.

Admittedly there aren't many (any ?) points levers that I can see on modern passenger lines but I still thought it probably wasn't ideal to have an undercarriage door swinging about as it could potentially damage lineside equipment surely?

Any thoughts?

 

[lineclear]

Is this not considered particularly dangerous then?

Absolutely. As a signaller, I would be putting signals back, sending an appropriate train radio message and, if applicable, sending 6 or 7 to the next box.

 

[theageofthetra]

What stock was involved?

 

[matt_world2004]

I believe there was a crash at ealing broadway in the 70s caised by this.

 

[theageofthetra]

Caught a train into town today and as it was pulling into the station and loud banging and scraping sound could be heard. I saw that a cabinet door on the leading coach was open and swinging about, scraping the platform edge as it went.

I told the guard and he got off the train, presumably to have a look, and after a minute or two delay we set off again and so I assumed the issue was resolved.

However, on my return journey, lo and behold it's the same unit again and the cabinet door is still open, only now it's very scratched and slightly bent.

Is this not considered particularly dangerous then? I ask as I seem to recall a door on a cabinet under a Western Class 52 was responsible for a serious derailment in 1973 (?), it caught a points lever and diverted the train onto an adjacent line causing it to derail.

Admittedly there aren't many (any ?) points levers that I can see on modern passenger lines but I still thought it probably wasn't ideal to have an undercarriage door swinging about as it could potentially damage lineside equipment surely?

Any thoughts?

Very serious as it can take the unit involved out of gauge.

 

[edwin_m]

The Ealing Broadway accident was the one referred to by both previous posters and was caused when a battery box door was not closed properly and fell open during the journey. The door in question was hinged at the bottom and would open down to horizontal to form a table for removing the battery, but once it hit a platform edge and the retaining strap was broken it fell through to the vertical, below and just outside the top of the rail. In this position it caught the actuating rods of a point machine (something that still exists in the same form in many places), moving the switches under the train and derailing it.

So yes anything projecting outside the gauge is potentially very serious.

 

[Jonfun]

Report it to the train company directly at once if you haven't already done so. It's a potentially very serious incident.

 

[hexagon789]

It was a ScotRail 156 working 2A53 11:57 Barrhead to Glasgow and 2A44 15:28 Glasgow Central to Barrhead. Assuming it's still out in service it would be on 2A53 17:57 Barrhead to Glasgow Central.

I did report it to the gurard but he didn't seem overly fussed.

 

[greyman42]

What if the door have caught on a platform edge, been ripped of , hit a passenger waiting on the platform and seriously injured or killed them.

 

[hexagon789]

What if the door have caught on a platform edge, been ripped of , hit a passenger waiting on the platform and seriously injured or killed them.

The thought did cross my mind.


From underfloor diagrams, I think it was the auxiliary heater cabinet door that was the door swingng open.

 

[87 027]

10 deaths and 94 injuries in the 1973 Ealing Broadway derailment referred to above

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ealing_rail_crash

 

[hexagon789]

10 deaths and 94 injuries in the 1973 Ealing Broadway derailment referred to above

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ealing_rail_crash

That's the incident I was thinking of, it was a Western and some undercarriage door or hatch catching a points lever that caused that tragic accident wasn't it?

 

[theageofthetra]

It was a ScotRail 156 working 2A53 11:57 Barrhead to Glasgow and 2A44 15:28 Glasgow Central to Barrhead. Assuming it's still out in service it would be on 2A53 17:57 Barrhead to Glasgow Central.

I did report it to the gurard but he didn't seem overly fussed.

It was a ScotRail 156 working 2A53 11:57 Barrhead to Glasgow and 2A44 15:28 Glasgow Central to Barrhead. Assuming it's still out in service it would be on 2A53 17:57 Barrhead to Glasgow Central.

I did report it to the gurard but he didn't seem overly fussed.

Well he should have been.

 

[87 027]

That's the incident I was thinking of, it was a Western and some undercarriage door or hatch catching a points lever that caused that tragic accident wasn't it?

Indeed. Must dig out my copy of Tom Rolt's morbidly fascinating book "Red for Danger"

 

[whhistle]

Perhaps the guard did fix it, but then it came lose again.

Things aren't always as they seem.

If the guard didn't inform Control about it, or has filled out any sort of log saying it happened and they fixed it, then there's a problem.

 

[AlterEgo]

Perhaps the guard did fix it, but then it came lose again.

Things aren't always as they seem.

If the guard didn't inform Control about it, or has filled out any sort of log saying it happened and they fixed it, then there's a problem.

I don’t think a guard is trained in rectifying a defect of that type - are they?

This is something which should result in the train being taken out of service until a fitter can attend. I wouldn’t have taken the train forward had I been the guard.

 

[LowLevel]

I don’t think a guard is trained in rectifying a defect of that type - are they?

This is something which should result in the train being taken out of service until a fitter can attend. I wouldn’t have taken the train forward had I been the guard.

If it's just a door that's come open (these things happen - some use budget locks that can work free) unless it had obviously become crippled as a result the guard would generally make sure it was secure, advise the driver and report it to the maintenance controller to have it checked. Crew door control flaps on 153s are particularly prone to working loose for example.

We aren't talking anything like a door on the cowling on the skirt of a mk3 or a loco battery box - there's nothing that substantial to come open on the underside of a class 156.

I'd be interested to know which panel it was that has come loose as I can't think of any off hand that should be able to strike a platform - most stuff under there is just open to the elements or comparatively small in size.

 

[whhistle]

Or do what Cross Country seem to have done with some of their units and take the door off all together!

 

[AlterEgo]

If it's just a door that's come open (these things happen - some use budget locks that can work free) unless it had obviously become crippled as a result the guard would generally make sure it was secure, advise the driver and report it to the maintenance controller to have it checked. Crew door control flaps on 153s are particularly prone to working loose for example.

We aren't talking anything like a door on the cowling on the skirt of a mk3 or a loco battery box - there's nothing that substantial to come open on the underside of a class 156.

I'd be interested to know which panel it was that has come loose as I can't think of any off hand that should be able to strike a platform - most stuff under there is just open to the elements or comparatively small in size.

My impression was this was a door or panel on the underside of the train, not necessarily familiar to the guard, which might risk putting the stock out of gauge.

 

[BestWestern]

The guard should have informed his driver, who should have examined the train. Ideally the door would have been secured, in the usual manner or temporarily as appropriate, with the assistance of the guard if required, and advice sought from control. If indeed it was just left, that is concerning.

 

[LowLevel]

My impression was this was a door or panel on the underside of the train, not necessarily familiar to the guard, which might risk putting the stock out of gauge.

Guards on class 156 should have at least a familiarity with what's on the underside of the unit although not necessarily a detailed one - for example the door reservoir isolation cock is below the solebar. As I say - the guard should be having a look, advising the driver and maintenance control should be advised as well.

It would certainly be of some interest on a 156 - apart from the odd sander pipe being dislodged they're not known for panels being a problem (indeed as I mentioned above there are hardly any to be a problem as most things are open to the elements).

Having reflected somewhat any of them that are obviously coming open are more of a problem that you might consider as they're mostly held in with screws on a 156 rather than a budget lock.

 

[BestWestern]

Guards on class 156 should have at least a familiarity with what's on the underside of the unit although not necessarily a detailed one - for example the door reservoir isolation cock is below the solebar. As I say - the guard should be having a look, advising the driver and maintenance control should be advised as well.

It would certainly be of some interest on a 156 - apart from the odd sander pipe being dislodged they're not known for panels being a problem (indeed as I mentioned above there are hardly any to be a problem as most things are open to the elements).

Having reflected somewhat any of them that are obviously coming open are more of a problem that you might consider as they're mostly held in with screws on a 156 rather than a budget lock.

Unless Scotrail do things rather differently, guards are not generally trained 'below the solebar' on DMUs, with the exception of emergency engine stop and fire supression switches. Isolating cocks is firmly into driver territory.

 

[hexagon789]

I'd be interested to know which panel it was that has come loose as I can't think of any off hand that should be able to strike a platform - most stuff under there is just open to the elements or comparatively small in size.

From what I could make out from a diagram of a 156's underfloor arrangement, I think I was the door on the auxiliary heater module that was swinging open.

 

[LowLevel]

Unless Scotrail do things rather differently, guards are not generally trained 'below the solebar' on DMUs, with the exception of emergency engine stop and fire supression switches. Isolating cocks is firmly into driver territory.

DRIC is definitely the guard's problem on 153 and 156 and while it's definitely the driver's responsibility it's always seemed helpful to me to know what is what to avoid potentially touching the wrong thing!

Reporting aux heater faults is also for both traincrew at our place (they've been replaced with those clever new ones with blue LEDs).

 

[BestWestern]

DRIC is definitely the guard's problem on 153 and 156 and while it's definitely the driver's responsibility it's always seemed helpful to me to know what is what to avoid potentially touching the wrong thing!

Reporting aux heater faults is also for both traincrew at our place (they've been replaced with those clever new ones with blue LEDs).

Interesting! The only door res iso our lot were trained on with the DMU fleet was the dreaded hose under the seats on the 150s!