Opening doors using emergency release at terminus

[GodAtum]

Today the last few doors of the train would not open at Victoria where the train was terminating. Would it be OK for a passenger to pull the emergency door release so they could alight?

 

[NSEFAN]

Unless it's an actual emergency, I would advise against it.

I know people are in a hurry to get to work, but fiddling with the door release will only cause operational problems, and by extension further delay to other services and passengers.

 

[ushawk]

Would probably be better off using a passenger alarm so the driver will instantly know there is a fault, then if the driver says use the handles - then use them.

 

[tsr]

If there is no announcement and the inter-carriage doors have jammed, and you are unable to leave by either of the two exit doors, then I would suggest you use the red passenger alarm first. I would only suggest this after a minimum of a few minutes, as it could just be due to a slow onboard computer.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Not sensible. There could an operational reason as to why (they could be splitting the units for instance). I would strongly advise against it as not only are you putting your own safety at risk but any others who are likely to follow too. Also depending on they type of traction the doors you have opened may have to be locked out of use which will inconvenience many others during the time the unit is out and about (or even lock the carriage out depending on certain other circumstances)!

You would be better off waiting a bit and then pulling the pass comm to alert the driver/guard to the problem and letting them sort it out and using the door release if instructed to.

 

[tsr]

Not sensible. There could an operational reason as to why (they could be splitting the units for instance). I would strongly advise against it as not only are you putting your own safety at risk but any others who are likely to follow too. Also depending on they type of traction the doors you have opened may have to be locked out of use which will inconvenience many others during the time the unit is out and about (or even lock the carriage out depending on certain other circumstances)!

You would be better off waiting a bit and then pulling the pass comm to alert the driver/guard to the problem and letting them sort it out and using the door release if instructed to.

To my knowledge, all trains required to split at Victoria do so after all the passengers have been given time to alight. Otherwise, I agree with your post!

The thing about the PasCom is that it will easily attract attention - but it should not damage the train - if it is used. The plastic cover probably won't break, and if it does, a replacement should be readily available.

 

[Bungle73]

Maybe the train was slightly too long for the platform? Or maybe there was just a slight delay in releasing the doors?

 

[Captain Chaos]

To my knowledge, all trains required to split at Victoria do so after all the passengers have been given time to alight. Otherwise, I agree with your post!

The thing about the PasCom is that it will easily attract attention - but it should not damage the train - if it is used. The plastic cover probably won't break, and if it does, a replacement should be readily available.

Ah right, fair enough. Victoria is actually one of the few London Termini I have yet to visit (the other being Liverpool Street) so wasn't sure what their procedure was.

Over at FGW we were told that if the cover is broken and the Emergency Door Release used then the door must be locked out of use on Turbo stock. Not aware of any change to that instruction though.

Mind you I have been stuck behind Waterloo - Reading trains before now because of a Pass Comm activation and subsequent brake problems. Not sure whether that's a problem with the Pass Comm or the Brakes themselves. Seen the odd 377 at Redhill as well with a similar problem. Though admittedly these faults are pretty rare

 

[jnjkerbin]

I was on a 465 once and we reached my station and myself and several other passengers went to the doors. When we stopped, they went *bing* (anyone who knows Networkers will know what I mean) but the "open" button didn't light up. Ran down to the other door, where no one was getting off and that wasn't working either. By this time, passengers waiting to get on had ran down to the adjacent coaches and got on. The driver locked the doors and set off, slightly hesitantly. The interconnecting door wouldn't open either until we were well on our way but we managed to alight at the next station because we had moved into the next coach. At this station all the doors worked.

Fortunately, the next train back was in a few minutes but I wouldn't want such a thing to happen somewhere with a less than hourly service.

We didn't use the passcom although if we hadn't managed to get off at that next station, we probably would have.

In another case, on a 375, we arrived at Sevenoaks but the doors just wouldn't open on the whole train. After about 10 to 15 minutes the guard pulled one of the door releases and all the passengers left through that one door and the train was sent through to the depot.

Joe

 

[87015]

Over at FGW we were told that if the cover is broken and the Emergency Door Release used then the door must be locked out of use on Turbo stock. Not aware of any change to that instruction though.

Whats so special about turbos that it can't be reset and carry on then...? Or is this just more FGW nonsense like the stagger out of stations driving policy?

Bit confused about some of the comments as the passcom doesn't do anything with the brakes on electrostar stock, can't think of anything post-privatisation where it is interlocked? Pulling the doors will stop the train, but not a passcom.

 

[ushawk]

If there is no announcement and the inter-carriage doors have jammed, and you are unable to leave by either of the two exit doors, then I would suggest you use the red passenger alarm first. I would only suggest this after a minimum of a few minutes, as it could just be due to a slow onboard computer.

There did use to be a problem at Victoria where doors wouldn't open for a couple of minutes, announcements were always made though, haven't had it for well over a year though so it's probably been sorted.

 

[Zoidberg]

There did use to be a problem at Victoria where doors wouldn't open for a couple of minutes, announcements were always made though, haven't had it for well over a year though so it's probably been sorted.

I remember such announcements - I last travelled into Victoria about two years ago.

Passengers were urged to be patient and not try to release the doors via the emergency handle. I enquired about the reason for the delay and the explanation given was that the train's system used GPS to determine whether or not a train was in a station and so safe for doors to be opened. There is/was no GPS reception in Victoria and the driver had to over-ride the computer system to manually release the doors. This took a couple of minutes.

But such an explanation would not account for some doors not being released automatically when others were.

 

[DavyCrocket]

I did this once. Train arrived. Doors opened and a few seconds later shut with no warning. I've known LU trains to do this when the train is rebooting (TAT and TAS?) but the doors are obviously shut before. Anyhow as someone had become trapped I used the emergency release to release them!

 

[TDK]

We didn't use the passcom although if we hadn't managed to get off at that next station, we probably would have.


Joe

You should have done as when a Pass com is pulled either in or leaving a station the driver will stop without hesitation.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Yes, but by the time the driver had stopped, walked down the train, established what the problem was, let us off and then reset the passcom we probably could have got to the next station and back again!

In total, it probably only took about an extra 15 minutes to get back.

Joe

 

[transportphoto]

Another advantage of using the PassCom to raise the attention of hte driver is that he is then aware of the problem, the malfuntioning doors, which can then be reported and tended to.

TP

 

[pendolino]

There did use to be a problem at Victoria where doors wouldn't open for a couple of minutes, announcements were always made though, haven't had it for well over a year though so it's probably been sorted.

There are still occasional SDO problems at Vic, notably on platform 12. The driver should be aware as MITRAC will bring up a fault and the door status screen will show that not all doors have been released. It can take a minute or two to release the doors, especially if MITRAC is being uncooperative (sometimes it requires the cab to be shut down and reactivated and the driver to log-in again with the location); ideally the driver will make a PA announcement, but when you're trying to work out why MITRAC won't play ball and what to do about it it's easy to forget to do this. A passcomm or egress will also bring up an alarm and only complicates matters.

Generally though there's no need to activate the passcomm or pull an egress; just be patient and the doors will open eventually.

 

[34D]

Do the current railway byelaws allow for a fine for operating the door release?

 

[island]

From memory yes, something to do with not operating levers or buttons that are not intended for passenger use.

 

[GodAtum]

Dont you also get a fine for using the emergency lever to speak to the driver?

 

[158747]

You don't get fined if it is used for a genuine reason.

 

[transmanche]

You don't get fined if it is used for a genuine reason.

And some people may feel that "being trapped on board and possibly forgotten by the driver" is a valid reason to operate the door release.

 

[AlexS]

Being trapped inside a burning carriage with no other exit, or other similar emergency, is a reason to operate the door release - most other things are reason to operate the passcom first. If you actually read the safety posters etc as requested by the announcements, it does explain it fairly well.

Having had trains stood for long periods of time because idiots incapable of reading destination screens/boards on the side of trains/listening to announcements made regularly/asking a simple question have jumped on the wrong train, realised they're going on a non stop train straight through their destination, then panicked and tried to get off while the train is moving, subsequently fritzing the train management system and causing reset issues having pulled the egress, delaying their fellow passengers, is most irritating.

If you were being really cruel as the train guard at this stage however, as most of the culprits seem to be too thick to read the rest of the notice that says they must manually open the doors when released, you could always just reset it and carry them on their way anyway to make a point.

 

[ushawk]

And some people may feel that "being trapped on board and possibly forgotten by the driver" is a valid reason to operate the door release.

Well if you don't contact the driver - how are they meant to know there is a possible fault as it could be showing as no problem for them.

And you would hardly be trapped on board.

 

[O L Leigh]

Wibble and piffle. A driver knows if the doors have failed to release for whatever reason without having to be told. Something is definately wrong if there aren't hundreds of people streaming past the cab. Besides, with Electrostars the TCMS will tell you if you have a door fault quickly enough.

If I ever have door problems with a Cl379 I will try to make a quick PA to tell the passengers. The last thing I want if I'm already trying to negotiate with the computer is someone upsetting it and increasing my workload by operating a PASSCOM/emergency egress handle. Leave it alone and let the driver/guard do whatever is needed to get the doors to cooperate and let you on/off.

O L Leigh

 

[transmanche]

Well if you don't contact the driver - how are they meant to know there is a possible fault as it could be showing as no problem for them.

And you would hardly be trapped on board.

Wibble and piffle. A driver knows if the doors have failed to release for whatever reason without having to be told

I wasn't advocating that people pull the emergency release. Just voicing the thoughts of a passenger, who does not know how the train operates and knowing that the driver gets out of the train at Victoria may feel trapped on the train when there hasn't been a PA announcement to tell them what was going on. As described by pendolino yesterday.

Remember, whilst the problem may be obvious to you - it won't be obvious to 'normal' passengers. Hence why some will panic and use the emergency door release.

 

[O L Leigh]

I wasn't advocating that people pull the emergency release. Just voicing the thoughts of a passenger, who does not know how the train operates and knowing that the driver gets out of the train at Victoria may feel trapped on the train when there hasn't been a PA announcement to tell them what was going on.

Remember, whilst the problem may be obvious to you - it won't be obvious to 'normal' passengers. Hence why some will panic and use the emergency door release.

Which is why I'm explaining, as a driver, what happens so that you know you haven't been forgotten and don't panic (which strikes me as an extreme reaction to the situation, if you don't mind me saying so).

Pressing PASSCOMs or pulling egress handles sets off all sorts of alarms in the cab and, because these are safety systems, these take precedence on the TCMS over trying to persuade the doors to release. They also require to be manually reset.

How many times have we had discussions about the appropriate use of these systems? And yet we always come back again and again. These are safety systems to be used only in the event of an emergency. Please, can we finally put this one to bed...?

O L Leigh

 

[BestWestern]

Whats so special about turbos that it can't be reset and carry on then...? Or is this just more FGW nonsense like the stagger out of stations driving policy?

I would hazard a guess this may be simply because the emergency egress is not covered, thus making it vulnerable to accidental or malicious use. The cover is obviously in place for a reason, if it is missing that would constitute an increased safety risk, albeit fairly slight.

It is always a concern to hear the stream of stories about Passcom/egress use crippling a train; it's hard not to conclude that perhaps modern rolling stock is somewhat overburdened with superfluous computer wizardry which just doesn't need to be there. A story that comes immediately to mind is the often told tale of the Electrostar fleet, which when new was frequently prone to sitting down when the supply current fluctuated, or which would fail and then 'transfer' their fault to the computer on the rescue train, and which still operate with voltage restrictions in various areas - as do Desiro units on SWT - because they need so much power they will easily kill the supply if you let them.

If somebody yanks the Passcom on a Sprinter, you reset it and carry on. It takes moments. If a door is opened you close it again. This also takes very little time. Similarly, when it comes to releasing the doors, the Guard stands on the platform, uses his old fashioned eyes and then presses a button with his old fashioned finger. It takes moments! People sometimes complain that a Guard operated door release takes too long, as there is the requirement to open a local door and check the train positioning first. How baffling that the supposedly superior Driver operated opening can end up taking minutes when the computer decides it doesn't want to play, or - farcically - when it won't work because nobody thought to bolt a GPS aerial to the station roof. There is something well worth learning in there, I'm quite convinced :roll:

 

[transmanche]

Which is why I'm explaining, as a driver, what happens so that you know you haven't been forgotten and don't panic (which strikes me as an extreme reaction to the situation, if you don't mind me saying so).

I wouldn't do that. Like I said, merely being the voice someone who might not know.

How many times have we had discussions about the appropriate use of these systems? And yet we always come back again and again. These are safety systems to be used only in the event of an emergency. Please, can we finally put this one to bed...?

I think in discussions on here, sometimes it's easy to forget that people here have more knowledge than the average passenger. And sometimes it's worth putting yourselves in that average passengers' shoes.

Remember, that average passenger will probably think of the emergency door release in the same way that they would think of an emergency exit to a building. And act accordingly if they feel trapped. It's up to the railway to make sure that they don't feel trapped.

 

[O L Leigh]

The problem is not necessarily that the trains now have more computing power but that the method of operating the technology has not necessarily been adequately well thought-through. SDO using GPS is vulnerable to problems at locations where the train cannot ascertain it's own location. However, this normally doesn't take too long to rectify. You just select your location from an on-screen list and the doors can then be released. It would have been better to have had platform-end beacons to control the SDO, but for various reasons (cost mostly, I suspect) it was decided not to use it. The problem is that SDO is a valuable tool for increasing capacity without which we wouldn't be able to run any 12 car trains on certain routes.

As for PASSCOM/egress problems, these are being overstated slightly. You can override them in the cab in order to get to a suitable location to deal with any problems, but eventually the train will have to stop. They need to be acknowledged in the cab and then reset locally. There is a chance that an egress could upset the door control unit which may require the door to be locked-off, but you can usually persuade them back into line.

The problem is when lots of things start happening all at the same time. As I mentioned above, PASSCOM activations or egress handles being pulled while you're grappling with the doors just makes things ten times more complicated. It may take or minute or two to achieve, but you can normally get the doors on an Electrostar open by one means or another. But start throwing in stroppy passengers pulling and pressing things they shouldn't in the train and the TCMS insists that you deal with that first because these are safety systems.

O L Leigh
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think in discussions on here, sometimes it's easy to forget that people here have more knowledge than the average passenger. And sometimes it's worth putting yourselves in that average passengers' shoes.

Which is why I'm saying what I am. Can you see that...?

Passenger doesn't understand what's happening and is getting jittery. A driver is telling them why it's nothing to be getting their knickers in a twist over.

Remember, that average passenger will probably think of the emergency door release in the same way that they would think of an emergency exit to a building. And act accordingly if they feel trapped. It's up to the railway to make sure that they don't feel trapped.

And the average passenger would head for the fire exit in Tesco if the automatic door at the exit failed to open. It's ridiculous and doesn't equate.

O L Leigh