ORR Refuses LM Preston Service

Status
Not open for further replies.

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
14,121
Location
Mold, Clwyd
The ORR has refused the London Midland application to run an hourly Birmingham-Preston service.
This would have been achieved by diverting one of the 2tph Birmingham-Liverpool services to Preston, calling at Hartford, Warrington and Wigan.
The Euston-Trent Valley-Stoke-Crewe service would be extended to Liverpool to compensate.
The reason given is that they do not want to decide on major capacity changes before the 2013 timetable review is complete - ie delaying tactics.

This is a pity as it would have opened up new connectivity at seemingly little cost.
We will have to wait for the WC franchise winner to declare their/DfT plans before the log jam can be broken.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/lm-wcml-declet-100311.pdf
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s22-london-midland-22sa-application-form.pdf
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Wath Yard

Member
Joined
31 Dec 2011
Messages
864
Err, that was a year ago. It is 2012 now. They refused the GC Blackpool - Euston and some dodgy Alliance services at the same time.
 

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,637
And new connectivity, apart from the fact that there's already an hourly service from Birmingham to Preston via Warrington and Wigan?
Since when has the Virgin service provided a direct service between Hartford and Warrington or the existing Liverpool services provided a link between Liverpool and Trent Valley?
 

VTPreston_Tez

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2012
Messages
1,159
Location
Preston
The DfT and ORR just don't like Preston. Shame, it's become incredibly crowded and needs more trains serving, so the ORR have made a tragic mistake.
 

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,637
I think Preston does pretty well, for its size.
Yep. Preston fits in to the same category as places like Crewe, Doncaster and York - if the mainline was routed slightly differently there would probably be significantly less services calling there.
 

WestCoast

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,358
Location
Glasgow
Preston's size shouldn't really be a factor, as the station serves as a key InterCity railhead for the East Lancashire Line stations, Ormskirk line stations, Leyland/Chorley, and the Fylde lines to Blackpool North and Blackpool South via South Fylde.
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,827
The DfT and ORR just don't like Preston. Shame, it's become incredibly crowded and needs more trains serving, so the ORR have made a tragic mistake.
Doubled-up 221s and 390s on the Scotland-Birmingham diagrams help surely? I think Preston gets quite a good deal overall.
 

VTPreston_Tez

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2012
Messages
1,159
Location
Preston
It's always crowded don't forget. Peak time services to London on platform 3c give me the shudders.
A commuter LM service would be fantastic for Preston as well as HS2 when it arrives at PRE.
 

calc7

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
2,097
It's always crowded don't forget. Peak time services to London on platform 3c give me the shudders.
A commuter LM service would be fantastic for Preston as well as HS2 when it arrives at PRE.
Surely people travelling at peak time from Preston to London will not use a London Midland service that will take double the time and uses stock that is not designed for such travel?

A LM service would not be used end-to-end except by the very time rich/money poor such a students.
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,827
It's always crowded don't forget. Peak time services to London on platform 3c give me the shudders.
3c? Platform 4 or 6 surely? Most peaks services to / from London aren't full and standing off Preston, it tends to fill up at Wigan and Warrington though.

I wouldn't say Scotland-BHM is that crowded all the time, any services that aren't single 221s tend to have some seats free unless events are on.
 

VTPreston_Tez

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2012
Messages
1,159
Location
Preston
Not Preston-London LM, but to BHM.
Matt, they're not exactly full during the weekday but notably at weekends it's wild. I live in Preston take heed, so I will have used the station more than anyone else (bar PR1 AFAIK) and it's been in the paper about Preston chaos. It's also not suited to problems like the Leyland fire of January, and services south of Preston were meant to have been struggling, if there was an LM service it would have been called up to Leyland/Euxton where the service would have shuttled people to their destination.
In actuality, LM would be more of an emergency service but still run Preston-Birmingham to help with Hartford and S&D (which would be given new links to Preston) so it would be a big help in that way.
 

Masboroughlad

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2011
Messages
1,459
Location
Midlands
Anything that lands on the desk of the luddites at the ORR that says 'new service' on it is automatically stamped 'NO' however good it is!
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,827
Not Preston-London LM, but to BHM.
Matt, they're not exactly full during the weekday but notably at weekends it's wild. I live in Preston take heed, so I will have used the station more than anyone else (bar PR1 AFAIK) and it's been in the paper about Preston chaos.
I find them quieter at weekends.

You think that you've used it more than others? Take heed that I use it quite a lot, often in excess of 100 times a year, you have no idea how close to Preston some people on here live, and how often they use the station (that doesn't necessarily indicate myself)!

In the paper? Aye, the papers are well knwon for hyperbole and making a massive deal over nothing.

I don't think Hartford and Sandwell & Dudley-Preston are massive flows! VT can also run into Leyland and Euxton Balshaw Lane in times of severe disruption too, not just a local operator.
 

ushawk

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2010
Messages
1,965
Location
Eastbourne
Not Preston-London LM, but to BHM.
Matt, they're not exactly full during the weekday but notably at weekends it's wild. I live in Preston take heed, so I will have used the station more than anyone else (bar PR1 AFAIK) and it's been in the paper about Preston chaos. It's also not suited to problems like the Leyland fire of January, and services south of Preston were meant to have been struggling, if there was an LM service it would have been called up to Leyland/Euxton where the service would have shuttled people to their destination.
In actuality, LM would be more of an emergency service but still run Preston-Birmingham to help with Hartford and S&D (which would be given new links to Preston) so it would be a big help in that way.
Dont see how having a LM service to Preston would of helped during the Leyland fire, it would probably of been turned at Wigan like every other service from the south. If any services were to run to Leyland/Euxton then it would of been Northern.
 

calc7

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
2,097
I don't think Hartford and Sandwell & Dudley-Preston are massive flows!

This.

And also remember, at weekends you can use CDRs/SVRs at any time - much less of an incentive for the TOC to augment the service when they're not selling SORs/SDRs.
 

atillathehunn

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2010
Messages
1,398
Location
NL
I find them quieter at weekends.

You think that you've used it more than others? Take heed that I use it quite a lot, often in excess of 100 times a year, you have no idea how close to Preston some people on here live, and how often they use the station!

In the paper? Aye, the papers are well knwon for hyperbole and making a massive deal over nothing.

I don't think Hartford and Sandwell & Dudley-Preston are massive flows! VT can also run into Leyland and Euxton Balshaw Lane in times of severe disruption too, not just a local operator.
You would be surprised just how busy Hartford is! Whilst the village itself is quite small, it's the nearest major station on the mainline is either Crewe or Warrington. It has a catchment area of around 20, 000 if I think. It's 30 minutes to Crewe on a good day, and only slightly less to Warrington - much more in the peak traffic. The car park and surrounding roads at Hartford station are full on a weekday. There are a lot of people who would value a connection northbound to Preston. I would appreciate the London train, as I am time rich and money poor and it's ideal for getting me to St Pancras for the Eurostar to university.
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,827
You would be surprised just how busy Hartford is! Whilst the village itself is quite small, it's the nearest major station on the mainline is either Crewe or Warrington. It has a catchment area of around 20, 000 if I think. It's 30 minutes to Crewe on a good day, and only slightly less to Warrington - much more in the peak traffic. The car park and surrounding roads at Hartford station are full on a weekday. There are a lot of people who would value a connection northbound to Preston. I would appreciate the London train, as I am time rich and money poor and it's ideal for getting me to St Pancras for the Eurostar to university.
I don't dispute that, indeed it doesn't surprise me, however, that in itself is not enough to justify the changes in my eyes.

I would like to see London services serving Hartford once more, shame they shortened the platforms a couple of years ago, they shaved ~40m off IIRC, so that might rule out 9-car 390s calling there.
 

calc7

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
2,097
This forum really needs people to stop using rhetoric and anecdotal evidence as to why a (usually InterCity) train should call at their local town/village/halt every hour of every day. Please, think of the financials!
 

atillathehunn

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2010
Messages
1,398
Location
NL
I don't dispute that, indeed it doesn't surprise me, however, that in itself is not enough to justify the changes in my eyes.

I would like to see London services serving Hartford once more, shame they shortened the platforms a couple of years ago, they shaved ~40m off IIRC, so that might rule out 9-car 390s calling there.
I don't remember them shaving anything off the platform length, although it has been nearly two years since I have lived there full time now. I know the south end of both platforms had fallen into disrepair.

It's also possible that I have lost track of the argument... If this is the case I apologise for muddying the waters.
Hartford hasn't had an express to London in many years. It used to have a Silverlink train in the morning that started from Liverpool, but it wasn't much use as it never came back again. Southbound, Hartford is pretty well served. You can be in London in two hours dead with a change to the express at Crewe. Northbound is a problem, though. A train to Preston would be ideal. There are a lot of commuters to Warrington, and a connection onto an express to Scotland at Warrington, Wigan or Preston would open up a lot of opportunities.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This forum really needs people to stop using rhetoric and anecdotal evidence as to why a (usually InterCity) train should call at their local town/village/halt every hour of every day. Please, think of the financials!
Yes, it would seem I lost track of the debate. I thought we were talking about the LM proposals.

Also, I refute your claim of the 'local village'. Hartford serves a population of somewhere between 20, 000 and 30, 000 depending on where you look for statistics. So I'll thank you to stop with the patronising.
 

MidnightFlyer

Veteran Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
12,827
I don't remember them shaving anything off the platform length, although it has been nearly two years since I have lived there full time now. I know the south end of both platforms had fallen into disrepair.
Aye, the extreme south of the platforms have had the coping stones removed and have been fenced off, this ocurred maybe 2-3 years ago, I hate to think how much messing about NR would have to do to bring it back into use. I can see why they did it though, I don't think anything over 8-cars will ever serve the station any time soon.

IIRC the last direct Hartford-London and vice versa services ended from VT in December 2003.
 

calc7

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
2,097
atillathehunn said:
Yes, it would seem I lost track of the debate. I thought we were talking about the LM proposals.

Also, I refute your claim of the 'local village'. Hartford serves a population of somewhere between 20, 000 and 30, 000 depending on where you look for statistics. So I'll thank you to stop with the patronising.
I am not being patronising, I am being realistic. I come from a town that is off the mainline and put up with it.

Please do tell me why Hartford should be the town that gets the extra service, bearing in mind the financial backdrop and the opportunity cost of using the rolling stock and staff on a more needing and profitable route.
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
15,934
Location
Yorkshire, Yorkshire, Yorkshire
new connectivity, apart from the fact that there's already an hourly service from Birmingham to Preston via Warrington and Wigan?
Since when has the Virgin service provided a direct service between Hartford and Warrington or the existing Liverpool services provided a link between Liverpool and Trent Valley?
I didn't say that there wasn't new connectivity, I said that the important flows between the big places are already covered.

As for Preston, it's already got a better service to many places than Liverpool gets (or at least as good a service as Liverpool) - I find it hard to feel sorry for the people of Preston when there are so many bigger places with poorer services.
 

atillathehunn

Established Member
Joined
6 Jan 2010
Messages
1,398
Location
NL
I am not being patronising, I am being realistic. I come from a town that is off the mainline and put up with it.

Please do tell me why Hartford should be the town that gets the extra service, bearing in mind the financial backdrop and the opportunity cost of using the rolling stock and staff on a more needing and profitable route.
Please clarify which extra service?

I thought the discussion was the extra LM service to Preston?

In which case, it makes sense because Hartford serves the largest body of population along the route and it doesn't currently have a service north along the West Coast mainline north of Weaver Junction. Makes more sense than stopping it in Acton Bridge or Winsford, and last time I checked they were the stations along that route.
 

calc7

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
2,097
Please clarify which extra service?

I thought the discussion was the extra LM service to Preston?

In which case, it makes sense because Hartford serves the largest body of population along the route and it doesn't currently have a service north along the West Coast mainline north of Weaver Junction. Makes more sense than stopping it in Acton Bridge or Winsford, and last time I checked they were the stations along that route.
The LM service.
My point is - were this service created, it would be using a unit and staff, every hour of the day that could otherwise be deployed on another route. Ok, if this route is the best use of that stock/staff and is profitable, then you win. My guess is it probably isn't, and it's just a bit frustrating that half of these 'new service' threads revolve around suggestions beneficial to the member posting for one reason or another (be they students, commuters, whatever), conveniently running through their home town/village, with no real appreciation for the complex logistical and financial backdrop.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top