ORR Refuses LM Preston Service

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would it be impossible for it to be run as 2x350 Birmingham to Preston & 3x350 north of Preston?

Come to think of it I'm not sure 350s attach and divide enroute anywhere at the moment in service.
Is it as easy as with a pair of 221s?
No doubt 450s divide frequently on SWT.
I watched a pair of 380s join at Largs last year and it wasn't a pretty sight.

Currently I would say Preston is underserved from Birmingham, and Liverpool overserved (and Hartford badly served).
This proposal redresses the balance. It also allows through Stoke-Liverpool trains.
There was once supposed to be a NWT Crewe-Carlisle stopper but it never took off.

PS 58 posts not bad for a mistaken thread!

 

[yorkie]

Why isn't there a system whereby two operators could share stock & services?

There is, it already happens, and has been happening for as long as I can remember. SET + FCC and also Northern + First Scotrail are two examples that have been discussed recently. In fact, the latter was discussed only last week.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

TPE Cleethorpes depot staff on all Northern's services to Barton too?

 

[calc7]

Come to think of it I'm not sure 350s attach and divide enroute anywhere at the moment in service.

Northampton - one portion to Crewe and one to Birmingham.

Some other ones have one terminating at Northampton with the front going onto Brum.

 

[tbtc]

No, but the line between Crewe/Warrington and Preston does need significantly more than 2tph (one of which doesn't call Crewe). And that's the main point of this service. Not providing more trains to Birmingham.

If this thread is saying that the Virgin services through Warrington (etc) are mainly Pendolini or doubled Voyagers (so cannot stop at Leyland etc), then that's a fairly decent service for the two trains an hour from Warrington to Preston (with one an hour serving Crewe).

Plus the Northern services from Wigan to Preston (and potentially TPE services in a couple of years?).

Talking of Northern, as they already serve Crewe/ Warrington Bank Quay/ Wigan North Western and Preston then they should be the operator to provide any service between these places. London Midland don't really have much of a case to the line north of Crewe (other than because they want the ORCATS money). If there is demand for a local service, Northern would be the logical operator for it.

 

[sprinterguy]

Am I right in thinking that a 390 doesn't have many more standard class seats than a 221 ?

Yeah it's only a fairly small difference because of the unnecessarily large proportion of first class accomodation on a Pendo, which means that a 390 only has one more carriage of standard class seating than does a 221: 294 seats (plus 6 tip-up) against 230.

 

[tbtc]

I refer you to the representations of Mike Hall (then M.P. for Vale Royal) in the Commons, where he states that the catchment area of Hartford station is in fact 120, 000.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmhansrd/vo040317/halltext/40317h05.htm

Every "rural" station has a catchment area of more than just the local town/ village though

 

[IanXC]

TPE Cleethorpes depot staff on all Northern's services to Barton too?

I think so. TPE's Scarborough depot provide crew for some Northern 158 workings to Hull too.

 

[D1009]

Every "rural" station has a catchment area of more than just the local town/ village though

You also have to consider where people want to go, and the area is also served by the CLC route to Chester and Manchester.

 

[Bevan Price]

The currently two track section between Wigan and Euxton Balshaw Lane used to be four track prior to electrification north of Weaver Junction in 1973 so that would probably be the easiest (comparatively) section to instate.

.

Not quite, the four tracks started at Standish Junction. However, two additional tracks for freight existed between Bamfurlong Junction & Standish Junction via the now-closed Whelley line.

 

[sprinterguy]

Not quite, the four tracks started at Standish Junction. However, two additional tracks for freight existed between Bamfurlong Junction & Standish Junction via the now-closed Whelley line.

Ah, thanks for that: I had a feeling that the four track section didn't start immediately at Wigan but I didn't know where else it might have begun.

 

[DarloRich]

The LM service.
My point is - were this service created, it would be using a unit and staff, every hour of the day that could otherwise be deployed on another route. Ok, if this route is the best use of that stock/staff and is profitable, then you win. My guess is it probably isn't, and it's just a bit frustrating that half of these 'new service' threads revolve around suggestions beneficial to the member posting for one reason or another (be they students, commuters, whatever), conveniently running through their home town/village, with no real appreciation for the complex logistical and financial backdrop.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS

I wondered how long it would take the Preston Posse to show up! Preston seems to do ok for servies. Whenever I have changed there the Virgin trains ae not that busy. It is after all a small (ish) northern town. Perhaps the slow trains were dropped to allow for faster London services which seems to be the way of things.

To me the LM service seems like an excuse to raid the old ORCATS.

 

[tbtc]

The Preston - Warrington - Birmingham service was only every couple of hours when part of Cross Country (half of the Preston - Birmingham services ran through Manchester), so the current level of service isn't too bad historically

 

[Lampshade]

The problem is Acton Bridge/Hartford/Winsford have an abysmal service from Warrington and points north. It involves a change at Crewe and anywhere from a 29 minute to a 1h56m wait given no service calls at all three and are two-hourly on bank holidays. Going via Liverpool isn't an option either, it's not permitted

It may or may not involve fiddling with the Liverpool service, but there needs to be a Crewe - Warrington/Preston stopper.

 

[PR1Berske]

It's always crowded don't forget. Peak time services to London on platform 3c give me the shudders.
A commuter LM service would be fantastic for Preston as well as HS2 when it arrives at PRE.

Eh? London on 3C? HS2 arriving at Preston?





Eh?

 

[pemma]

Every "rural" station has a catchment area of more than just the local town/ village though

If Hartford was a new station it would probably be called Northwich South Parkway. The car park has 83 spaces which are always filled, the pub across the road from the station offers overflow parking for a daily charge.

 

[Holly]

The problem is Acton Bridge/Hartford/Winsford have an abysmal service from Warrington and points north. It involves a change at Crewe and anywhere from a 29 minute to a 1h56m wait given no service calls at all three and are two-hourly on bank holidays.... there needs to be a Crewe - Warrington/Preston stopper.

The problem with those stations (Acton Bridge/Hartford/Winsford) is that they are on two track sections of the WCML (Acton Bridge, the least used of them, has three tracks). This despite there being quad track sections (or former quad track sections that could be reinstated) nearby in every case.
If the stations were relocated to the quad track sections then the old stations could be demolished and the old platform areas used for new quad tracking.

If HS2 eventually rejoins the WCML at Runcorn South i.e. Weaver Junction (the best possible location for fastest service to Liverpool) then the need for quad tracking of WCML in Cheshire would be reduced. But some plans suggest that HS2 will not rejoin the WCML any further North than Lichfield, even after HS2 phase 2 is completed. In which case enhancement of WCML through Cheshire, and including construction of new Parkway stations is needed. Both to improve London - Liverpool service times and to provide Acton Bridge/Hartford/Winsford with local services that don't impact lost distance services.

The two Weaver viaducts remain a problem.