Overcrowding at St. Pancras (EMR) 03/12/23

[LBMPSB]

If we were to sign all routes we would take about 20 years to train.

If TOCs were to employ more Drivers and not work on a basis of overtime worked to just cover a basic service, there could be capacity like spare drivers booked on, even drivers to Pilot trains from other areas. Which we had under British Rail. Even had things called "Relief Trains" where spare stock was used and ran immediately behind a scheduled service to carry the extra passengers, but then the TOCs do not have the spare stock nor train crews. Because the railway is no longer a public service, solely there to make money to pay shareholders for investing in a railway, having things like spare stock and spare drivers is seen as a waste of resources.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Diversionary routes are all well and good but given various areas of the network are full to capacity, there is very limited scope to actually use them

 

[Jimbob52]

If TOCs were to employ more Drivers and not work on a basis of overtime worked to just cover a basic service, there could be capacity like spare drivers booked on, even drivers to Pilot trains from other areas. Which we had under British Rail. Even had things called "Relief Trains" where spare stock was used and ran immediately behind a scheduled service to carry the extra passengers, but then the TOCs do not have the spare stock nor train crews. Because the railway is no longer a public service, solely there to make money to pay shareholders for investing in a railway, having things like spare stock and spare drivers is seen as a waste of resources.

I see we have returned to the economics of the 1950s.

No doubt you would favour a return to the time when there were sidings full of old coaches only used for the Summer hop pickers.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I see we have returned to the economics of the 1950s.

No doubt you would favour a return to the time when there were sidings full of old coaches only used for the Summer hop pickers.

No - just returned to the idea of a public service being sufficiently resourced for most regular purposes.

 

[LCC106]

Yet, of the 14 intercity departures between 1530 (when EMR step up the intercity service frequency to 2tph each to Nottingham/Sheffield) and the 1905 to Nottingham, 12 (i.e. almost all) were 5 car and 1 each were 7 and 10 cars.

Have I misunderstood? Thought they were 2 trains ph each anyway. Sheff XX:02, XX:32, Nott XX:05, XX:35.

 

[renegademaster]

Is anywhere on the continent still good with running relief trains or are they just as tightly wound?

 

[yorksrob]

I see we have returned to the economics of the 1950s.

No doubt you would favour a return to the time when there were sidings full of old coaches only used for the Summer hop pickers.

Or rather a return to the economics of about three years ago, when they did broadly have enough rolling stock for the service.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Or rather a return to the economics of about three years ago, when they did broadly have enough rolling stock for the service.

A fair question, Rob. Given that the HSTs had to go because they didn’t match current accessibility standards I suppose that this boils down to whether the Class 180s should have been kept on.

 

[yorksrob]

A fair question, Rob. Given that the HSTs had to go because they didn’t match current accessibility standards I suppose that this boils down to whether the Class 180s should have been kept on.

Either the new rolling stock should have been brought in earlier or the HST's eeked out longer. Either way the current situation shouldn't have been allowed.

Will the new fleet be enough to cover the current and future demands of main line passengers ? If not, I hope that they have the sense to retain some Meridians as well.

(By "current and future demands" I mean actual current and future demands to meet the needs of passengers, not stuff made up by the DfT to get carriages scrapped).

 

[ainsworth74]

I did the 1230 Hull Trains service from St Pancras on Sunday afternoon and from what I could see it appeared quite orderly. Plenty of staff around to point you to the right queue and we were boarded around fifteen minutes prior to departure and the train rolled out bang on time (if not a minute early) with the train being full with some standees. Considering some of the horror stories I'd heard about before hand I was slightly surprised it was as pleasant as it was.

I will, of course, concede that it's perfectly possible that other services boarding around that time were facing more chaos and less pleasant experience!

The one thing I would say was that there's a lack of places to sit for those who struggle with queuing up. A lady in the queue in front of me was able to flag down a member of staff walking past who took her to a bench she could wait at until the train was boarding. But it didn't seem obvious, if no staff member had been passing, what she should have done if she (or anyone else) had struggled with standing for the period required in the queue.

 

[LowLevel]

A fair question, Rob. Given that the HSTs had to go because they didn’t match current accessibility standards I suppose that this boils down to whether the Class 180s should have been kept on.

The original Midland sets were in generally excellent condition and had received an overhaul with a view to achieving several more years out of them.

They needed to go at some point but there was no reason for firstly the replacement with totally shot East Coast sets that had been maintained with a view to scrapping them simply to achieve some small improvements in PRM capability, and secondly the totally arbitrary removal of both fleets without their replacement being ready for service.

Of course this coincided with the ORR's fatwa against droplight windows which I won't debate the positives and negatives of here which won't have helped the matter.

The answer should have been that the replacement trains were on order and the existing fleet should have lasted until the point of entry to service, rather than a typical Abellio bid that promised much but fell apart on the detail and is now reliant on a fleet of overworked and mechanically shot class 222s, with some class 360s as a supporting cast that can't even go for a heavy exam without being dragged by a 60 year old diesel.

I went to a pre franchise roadshow and asked the bid team how they ever expected a tiny fleet of 180s which have been a liability wherever they've been to come in and make the difference, and the answer was that they were confidence their investment would make them work. Ha. How well that turned out. The roadshow bus then broke down.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Have I misunderstood? Thought they were 2 trains ph each anyway. Sheff XX:02, XX:32, Nott XX:05, XX:35.

Not on Sundays before 3.30. It's 1 tph to each of Sheffield and Nottingham, the 02/32 and 05/35 pattern doesn't start until 1532

the HSTs had to go because they didn’t match current accessibility standards

I recall that the 2+8 HSTs were also too slow for the current timetable
(Obviously short-form HSTs wouldn't have this issue).

The one thing I would say was that there's a lack of places to sit for those who struggle with queuing up.

The passenger-friendliness of St Pancras has always been poor for MML passengers.
Access from the North ticket hall of the Underground in particular is also not great
The ever-deserted Searcy's champagne bar is the obvious thing to take out to increase space, but waiting rooms or other places to sit doesn't deliver lease income to HS1.

 

[yorksrob]

The original Midland sets were in generally excellent condition and had received an overhaul with a view to achieving several more years out of them.

They needed to go at some point but there was no reason for firstly the replacement with totally shot East Coast sets that had been maintained with a view to scrapping them simply to achieve some small improvements in PRM capability, and secondly the totally arbitrary removal of both fleets without their replacement being ready for service.

Of course this coincided with the ORR's fatwa against droplight windows which I won't debate the positives and negatives of here which won't have helped the matter.

The answer should have been that the replacement trains were on order and the existing fleet should have lasted until the point of entry to service, rather than a typical Abellio bid that promised much but fell apart on the detail and is now reliant on a fleet of overworked and mechanically shot class 222s, with some class 360s as a supporting cast that can't even go for a heavy exam without being dragged by a 60 year old diesel.

I went to a pre franchise roadshow and asked the bid team how they ever expected a tiny fleet of 180s which have been a liability wherever they've been to come in and make the difference, and the answer was that they were confidence their investment would make them work. Ha. How well that turned out. The roadshow bus then broke down.

Ah, the ORR strikes again.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Ah, the ORR strikes again.

Good try but it was the DfT accessibility (slam doors) deadline that did it.

Nevertheless, this sort of thing demonstrates why the 1950s option of retaining old stock, mouldering in sidings for 90% of the year, is no longer credible. There have been steady changes to requirements - asbestos, crashworthiness, retention toilets, information screens, door locking then power doors and so on. And on today's fixed formation/multiple unit railway every cab has to keep up with communications, data logging, balise reading, ERTMS/ETCS, etc.. The inexorable march of obsolescence, quite apart from other challenges such as security of idle stock.

 

[yorksrob]

Good try but it was the DfT accessibility (slam doors) deadline that did it.

Nevertheless, this sort of thing demonstrates why the 1950s option of retaining old stock, mouldering in sidings for 90% of the year, is no longer credible. There have been steady changes to requirements - asbestos, crashworthiness, retention toilets, information screens, door locking then power doors and so on. And on today's fixed formation/multiple unit railway every cab has to keep up with communications, data logging, balise reading, ERTMS/ETCS, etc.. The inexorable march of obsolescence, quite apart from other challenges such as security of idle stock.

Although we're not really talking about "idle" stock, rather the day to day fleet and its adequate (or not as the case may be) replacement.

 

[baz962]

The original Midland sets were in generally excellent condition and had received an overhaul with a view to achieving several more years out of them.

They needed to go at some point but there was no reason for firstly the replacement with totally shot East Coast sets that had been maintained with a view to scrapping them simply to achieve some small improvements in PRM capability, and secondly the totally arbitrary removal of both fleets without their replacement being ready for service.

Of course this coincided with the ORR's fatwa against droplight windows which I won't debate the positives and negatives of here which won't have helped the matter.

The answer should have been that the replacement trains were on order and the existing fleet should have lasted until the point of entry to service, rather than a typical Abellio bid that promised much but fell apart on the detail and is now reliant on a fleet of overworked and mechanically shot class 222s, with some class 360s as a supporting cast that can't even go for a heavy exam without being dragged by a 60 year old diesel.

I went to a pre franchise roadshow and asked the bid team how they ever expected a tiny fleet of 180s which have been a liability wherever they've been to come in and make the difference, and the answer was that they were confidence their investment would make them work. Ha. How well that turned out. The roadshow bus then broke down.

To be fair to the 222 sets I had many months of driving with engines out , but for around a month they have pretty much all been firing on the ones I have driven. ( Probably jinx myself now). Had some very happy units recently.