Overground/Crossrail takeover of Greater Anglia inners

[ScotGG]

Don't get me wrong, I do like the LO way of doing things. Clean stations, staff from start to finish of service etc - but it isn't free.

But it could garner more revenue than costs if it stops mass fare evasion, and keeps many undesirable people off trains so many more people are attracted to the service.

 

[jon0844]

But it could garner more revenue than costs if it stops mass fare evasion, and keeps many undesirable people off trains so many more people are attracted to the service.

That does seem to be the case and long may it continue to be so. Keeping the stations looking good, and the rolling stock, as well as keeping staff, are all essential. The temptation to change things could be devastating.

 

[Steviec9]

The problem for some of us old enough to have freedom passes is that we don't qualify through not being resident in Greater London! It's a bugbear of mine - my bus pass may be valid but if I'm being charged up to the Oyster cap on train services I haven't in effect enjoyed any free bus travel that day.

Indeed. Senior residents in the environs of Waltham Cross, Theobalds Grove and Cheshunt are all in Herts CC area and have never qualified for a Freedom Pass and only recently benefitted from Oyster PAYG at those stations. The introduction of LO means very little to them in terms of ticketing, other than the price reductions introduced by TFL, applicable to all.

 

[Be3G]

They have managed to scrub what was a permanent smell of **** from the stairs at Theobalds Grove.

Hooray! Not the most pleasant smell to encounter when on the way to the hospital up the road.

 

[450.emu]

While I am sure AGA could and should have done a lot of things, I assume it comes down to money.. and TfL is spending rather a lot on doing things its way. Meanwhile, the GA franchise didn't include spending money on stations (especially once it was known that TfL was taking over some services).

Now, I know that a lot of people moan about what they get for the money they pay on their season tickets, but I assume that TfL has to get its money from somewhere too? I am sure someone will point out that TfL has actually cut some fares, but my point still stands - someone is paying for all of these improvements.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the LO way of doing things. Clean stations, staff from start to finish of service etc - but it isn't free. It reminds me a bit of when Homer Simpson was put in charge of sanitation and spent his whole budget in a matter of days - but, boy, did people have a great rubbish collection service for that time!

Homer's done a good job with Theobalds Grove if he's also managed to stop the ticket office leaking each time it rains :roll:

 

[plcd1]

How long before removal of point-to-point seasons and everyone is forced to use travelcards like on the NLL? I predict 2017 :P

I don't think this will happen. It is politically too sensitive for TfL. They'd be pounced by the Government and you have one Cabinet Minister (Mr Duncan-Smith) with a constituency on Overground territory. The fact there is a London terminals fare on PAYG plus also no abolition of the season ticket at takeover suggests that the opposition prior to takeover had some effect. I can't think of a narrative that TfL could construct which would justify charging commuters several hundred pounds a year extra. It just doesn't "fly" in PR or political terms.

TfL's aim will be to get off peak revenue up as much as they possibly can in the short term to make the finances more resilient. If the new trains are able to squash in some more commuters or contra peak traffic flows develop then peak time revenue may also rise (ignoring the impact of fare rises).

The only route where a London Terminals ticket *might* come off is on Crossrail once the tunnel opens through Paddington and through Liverpool St to Stratford. However even there we have the precedent of Thameslink which still retains London Terminals pricing and ticketing at the edge of Zone 1. Crossrail will also continue to run peak time trains into the surface level at Liverpool St so the concept still works. On balance it's probably very unlikely.

 

[ScotGG]

If they hope to take over southeastern then getting rid of point to point would also harm their case.

Agree about off peak growth being their target, and where they have been incredibly successful, and again it's the far better ambience that staffing and cleanliness brings, that greatly helps encourage and sustain increases, along with frequency increases off peak.

 

[matt_world2004]

Indeed. Senior residents in the environs of Waltham Cross, Theobalds Grove and Cheshunt are all in Herts CC area and have never qualified for a Freedom Pass and only recently benefitted from Oyster PAYG at those stations. The introduction of LO means very little to them in terms of ticketing, other than the price reductions introduced by TFL, applicable to all.

Herts CC probably need to start negotiations with TfL for concessionary travel on their services, Significant parts of the Metropolitan line and the Watford overground services also serve Hertfordshire residents.

 

[Sleepy]

Indeed. Senior residents in the environs of Waltham Cross, Theobalds Grove and Cheshunt are all in Herts CC area and have never qualified for a Freedom Pass and only recently benefitted from Oyster PAYG at those stations. The introduction of LO means very little to them in terms of ticketing, other than the price reductions introduced by TFL, applicable to all.

Can anyone in the know tell us how much variance in council tax there is between London councils and these on the boundary places like Brentwood and Cheshunt ?

 

[Steviec9]

Can anyone in the know tell us how much variance in council tax there is between London councils and these on the boundary places like Brentwood and Cheshunt ?

Borough of Broxbourne (covering Wal X, Theobalds and Cheshunt) is just slightly more expensive than the neighbouring LB Enfield. The bone of contention is that they pay as much/more in council tax (and always have done) and do not receive the concessions that people living 'across the border' do for using, essentially, the same rail services. It has always been thus - people in this area go to the same hospitals, shopping districts, R&R venues but have to pay if they want to use the more convenient rail services. The 'cross border' bus services south of Cheshunt/Waltham Cross, historically operated by London Country and Green Line (and indeed some red LT routes), have all been curtailed at the county border (Waltham Cross) since deregulation outside London. So senior citizens in Cheshunt for example have to pay to use rail and do not have a bus service that runs south of the next town. Without inciting thread drift, this is the reason that the arrival of LO has been heralded by this social group with not much more than a raising of an eyebrow.

 

[Deerfold]

Herts CC probably need to start negotiations with TfL for concessionary travel on their services, Significant parts of the Metropolitan line and the Watford overground services also serve Hertfordshire residents.

I can't see that happening. Herts had been cutting costs on public transport for years (mostly buses, but also the team which publicises and administers public transport issues has shrunk massively) - I doubt theres any budget for providing concessionary rail travel.

 

[Olaf]

One interesting aspect is that there have been discussions in the recent past around extending the boundaries of Greater London to include satellite towns such as Watford, Slough, Guildford, and Redhill, which would as side affect address these anomalies. There are no formal plans yet, but it is still doing the rounds.

 

[bicbasher]

One interesting aspect is that there have been discussions in the recent past around extending the boundaries of Greater London to include satellite towns such as Watford, Slough, Guildford, and Redhill, which would as side affect address these anomalies. There are no formal plans yet, but it is still doing the rounds.

There were plans back in the 60s to add Epsom and Ewell, along with Caterham into Greater London. However Caterham is now in Zone 6, along with Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner, which are in Surrey.

 

[LeeLivery]

One interesting aspect is that there have been discussions in the recent past around extending the boundaries of Greater London to include satellite towns such as Watford, Slough, Guildford, and Redhill, which would as side affect address these anomalies. There are no formal plans yet, but it is still doing the rounds.

Epsom & Ewell was considered to be part of the 1963 Greater London Act but for some reason decided not to - even though its more urban than half of Bromley. Having Greater London as everywhere within the M25 to include Watford, Weybridge, Loughton, Dartford etc, makes perfect sense. However, going beyond that to Guildford and Slough, I can't see ever happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyway, has anyone travelled on the "new" LO lines in the last few days? Any big changes yet?

 

[bicbasher]

Epsom & Ewell was considered to be part of the 1963 Greater London Act but for some reason decided not to -

Funny enough despite being in Surrey, Epsom & Ewell had the Metropolitan Police until 2000, when it was transferred to Surrey Police.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Epsom & Ewell was considered to be part of the 1963 Greater London Act but for some reason decided not to - even though its more urban than half of Bromley. Having Greater London as everywhere within the M25 to include Watford, Weybridge, Loughton, Dartford etc, makes perfect sense. However, going beyond that to Guildford and Slough, I can't see ever happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyway, has anyone travelled on the "new" LO lines in the last few days? Any big changes yet?

Bar the staff changes and the clean up operation the trains are the same. Usual common failures, to be expected.

One other difference that occurred to me was that when I forgot my season ticket I was offered a choice at Liverpool St.

The 15 minute fumble with forms, the charging for a ticket, the penalty fare followed by refund process. Or...just tapping out with an oyster of bank card and receiving the max fare.

I opted for the tap out, not even sure what it has charged me but is a lot more convenient!

 

[transmanche]

Funny enough despite being in Surrey, Epsom & Ewell had the Metropolitan Police until 2000, when it was transferred to Surrey Police.

That's because the Metropolitan Police District was much older than Greater London. Places such as Waltham Abbey, Cheshunt and Potters Bar were also in the MPD.

It's only with the advent of the GLA and the setting up of a Metropolitan Police Authority that the Government decided to align the MPD with the Greater London boundaries.

 

[plcd1]

Bar the staff changes and the clean up operation the trains are the same. Usual common failures, to be expected.

One other difference that occurred to me was that when I forgot my season ticket I was offered a choice at Liverpool St.

The 15 minute fumble with forms, the charging for a ticket, the penalty fare followed by refund process. Or...just tapping out with an oyster of bank card and receiving the max fare.

I opted for the tap out, not even sure what it has charged me but is a lot more convenient!

If you have an online account with TfL then you can register your bank card. You could then see the journey in question and I believe TfL allow you to put in an entry charge so you pay the right fare rather than the Standard Fare.

Even if you have not registered there is a 7 day window for Contactless Bank Card users to check transactions via

https://contactless.tfl.gov.uk/

and the follow the link at the bottom of the text referring to "7 days charge & journey history".

 

[VauxhallandI]

If you have an online account with TfL then you can register your bank card. You could then see the journey in question and I believe TfL allow you to put in an entry charge so you pay the right fare rather than the Standard Fare.

Even if you have not registered there is a 7 day window for Contactless Bank Card users to check transactions via

https://contactless.tfl.gov.uk/

and the follow the link at the bottom of the text referring to "7 days charge & journey history".

Thanks, I've just set myself up and applied for a refund. They charged me £9.90, the refund is only a couple of quid but worth a go.

 

[LeeLivery]

A few news outlets have reported that TfL and Kent County Council have had new talks over Southeastern operations. Kent have made it again clear that no "mainline" reductions/slowing down is acceptable, which I think is fair.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-33131954
http://www.sevenoakschronicle.co.uk...oost-backing/story-26672108-detail/story.html
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bar the staff changes and the clean up operation the trains are the same. Usual common failures, to be expected.

One other difference that occurred to me was that when I forgot my season ticket I was offered a choice at Liverpool St.

Ah, thank you. As for the season tickets, I've heard people have been messed around between AGA and LO.

 

[plcd1]

A few news outlets have reported that TfL and Kent County Council have had new talks over Southeastern operations. Kent have made it again clear that no "mainline" reductions/slowing down is acceptable, which I think is fair.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-33131954
http://www.sevenoakschronicle.co.uk...oost-backing/story-26672108-detail/story.html
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Ah, thank you. As for the season tickets, I've heard people have been messed around between AGA and LO.

Not talks per se. TfL, Kent CC reps and Surrey CC reps all appeared in front of the London Assembly Transport Committee to discuss Rail Devolution. There is a webcast of the full meeting (all 2.5 hrs of it)!

In very broad terms Kent CC set out their "red lines" as they termed it. However they were broadly receptive to a TfL takeover of the inner suburban lines subject to proper involvement and their red lines being met. They were very keen on Oyster being extended to Sevenoaks and Gravesend / Gillingham. TfL said they had few issues with Kent's comments because they can't add peak trains, only lengthen them. They can't steal train paths because ORR control track access and fares wouldn't go up in Kent to fund a TfL transfer because if there was a split out the respective contract finances are reset anyway. They also cautioned that TfL were very unlikely to reduce fares in Kent because of the way stations are allocated to TOCs and who gains pricing responsibility (they cited the Shenfield example). Kent and TfL have agreed to meet for further discussions.

Surrey CC didn't disagree with what Kent said and again were pretty open minded about TfL taking on some lines that run into their area. For me the key issue is that they don't want to be presented with a "fait accompli" in terms of a TfL takeover. They want to be fully involved in the development of the proposals so they can deal with any concerns along the way and try to stop the worst "oh no, our trains will be taken away" type rumours.

Kent CC also said they stymied the previous TfL takeover move because they didn't like the Estuary Airport planned by the London Mayor. They expect that threat to go away as a result of the Airports Commission report and are more open to a possible takeover by TfL in 2018.

 

[class303]

I think Boris has been taken a bit out of context here..... :roll:

http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/ne..._of_sub_standard_service___Boris/?ref=mr&lp=2

 

[Clip]

Some of the comments on this article are quite funny

http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/ne..._for_repeat_rail_chaos_since_takeover/?ref=ar

and what about the money they are wasting in having people stand on every platform in their bright orange ties? They are absolutely useless and of no help at all, they know nothing about the train line. I am still baffled as to what their purpose is.

 

[jon0844]

The anti-AGA brigade moan constantly about how they pay thousands every year in fares, but seem quite happy that LO/Tfl Rail are investing heavily in refreshing the trains and staffing stations from start/finish, and more visible staff on platforms etc.

I do think it's a good thing and will encourage more patronage (although do some of the new TfL run services have room for more people?) but always find it odd that people can moan about money being wasted one minute, then seem so happy at huge amounts of money being spent the next.

 

[LeeLivery]

Some of the comments on this article are quite funny

http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/new...keover/?ref=ar



Quote:
and what about the money they are wasting in having people stand on every platform in their bright orange ties? They are absolutely useless and of no help at all, they know nothing about the train line. I am still baffled as to what their purpose is.

That person may have point tbh. Some of LO staff really seem to do little to nothing, not know very much and in delays, have absolutely no idea what's going on. In the context of the West Anglia nightmare of the last two weeks, I don't blame them being annoyed over that.

 

[MCR247]

The anti-AGA brigade moan constantly about how they pay thousands every year in fares, but seem quite happy that LO/Tfl Rail are investing heavily in refreshing the trains and staffing stations from start/finish, and more visible staff on platforms etc.

I do think it's a good thing and will encourage more patronage (although do some of the new TfL run services have room for more people?) but always find it odd that people can moan about money being wasted one minute, then seem so happy at huge amounts of money being spent the next.

When it is a private sector company no profits should be made. When it is public sector, money should only be spent when absolutely necessary apparently!

 

[plcd1]

I think Boris has been taken a bit out of context here..... :roll:

http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/ne..._of_sub_standard_service___Boris/?ref=mr&lp=2

I watched the webcast a few hours after the live broadcast. Boris tripped over his words very slightly and the newspaper reporter has quoted him but not conveyed the true sense of what he was saying. I agree with you that his words are being used to concoct a non story in terms of two years of delays. He in no way said that and it was evident that he knows there are problems and I expect he / his officials are getting very regular updates on what is happening. This is because this particular bit of devolution is being watched very closely by a whole load of people.

I'm no fan of the Mayor but I think the newspaper article is unfair and inaccurate.

 

[Clip]

That person may have point tbh. Some of LO staff really seem to do little to nothing, not know very much and in delays, have absolutely no idea what's going on. In the context of the West Anglia nightmare of the last two weeks, I don't blame them being annoyed over that.

I get that but they have only been in the job for a couple of weeks and for people new to the railways ins and outs it can be quite daunting no matter how much training they have had up to their start date. And as such when things go wrong like they have been doing they tend to freeze.

 

[jon0844]

I intended to try out LO today, but at Finsbury Park I saw the line status showing severe delays between Edmonton Green and Cheshunt (at least the displays do show detail of the lines affected, which is good) and then on my return home, services were cancelled from the bay at Cheshunt due to signalling problems (the RTT app reported track problems, which of course can be the same thing).

So I didn't get to use LO in either direction!

Perhaps I'll have more luck tomorrow..!

 

[MrPIC]

All these new platform staff seem to be sitting on the benches playing on their phone whenever I go past on the fasts ^_^