Overground/Crossrail takeover of Greater Anglia inners

[jon0844]

Is the line from Tottenham to Broxbourne going to be four tracked? I can't imagine it being that hard a job for most of the route as there seems to be room. Wasn't it originally more tracks?

 

[Philip C]

That was the off-peak service. I've no idea what the peak service was like back then.

Just for a point of reference: the Summer 1962 timetable shows the following Monday to Friday services from Liverpool Street:

Off-Peak

Chingford 6tph
xx06, xx26, xx46 Bethnal Green, Hackney Down then all stns.
xx16, xx36, xx56 Hackney Downs, St James' St then all stns.

Enfield 6tph
xx14, xx44 All stns.
xx24, xx54 Hackney Downs then all stns.
xx04, xx34 Hackney Downs, Stoke Newington, Seven Sisters then all stns.

Southbury Loop 2tph
xx12, xx42 Lower Edmonton then all to Broxbourne dividing there with Front Portion all to Bishop's Stortford & Rear Portion all to Hertford East.

Peak

Chingford 9tph
xx02, xx10, xx22, xx30, xx42, xx50 St James' St then all stns.
xx06, xx26, xx46 Bethnal Green, Hackney Downs then all stns.

Enfield Pattern of 6tph (but didn't operate for full peak hour)
xx16, xx36, xx56 All stns.
(xx04), xx24, xx44 Hackney Downs, Stoke Newington, Seven Sisters then all stns.
Note Between 1630 & 1829 there were limited stop Enfield departures at 1724 and 1744 only.

Southbury Loop 3tph
xx12, xx32, xx52 Lower Edmonton then all to Broxbourne dividing there with Front Portion all to Bishop's Stortford & Rear Portion all to Hertford East.


This was, of course, pre-Victoria Line.

There were also very few other trains on the section of line. In the off-peak there was an hourly Lea Valley local leaving Liverpool Street at xx22 for Hackney Downs and all stns to Cheshunt; every two hours there was a local from Stratford via the Lea Valley to Cheshunt (1005, 1205, 1405, 1605). Then the longer distance service comprised departures at 1036, 1236, 1436 & 1636 for King's Lynn with a calling pattern of Bishop's Stortford, Audley End, Cambridge and beyond. The Fenman , at 1636, omitted Bishop's Stortford. These fasts fed a two-hourly down local which started at Bishop's Stortford. And that, basically was that.

In the peaks there was 3tph (xx00, xx20, xx40) for Clapton and all stns. to Broxbourne. There was 3tph (1714, 1734, & 1754 only) for Harlow Town and Bishop's Stortford and 3tph running from Liverpool Street beyond Bishop's Stortford:
1636 The Fenman : Audley End, Cambridge -> King's Lynn
1656 Bishop's Stortford, Audley End, Cambridge -> Bury St Edmunds
1716 Bishop's Stortford, Stansted, Elsenham, Newport, Audley End, Cambridge -> Ely
1736 Bishop's Stortford, Audley End, Cambridge
1756 Bishop's Stortford, Stansted, Elsenham, Newport, Audley End, Cambridge
1836 Bishop's Stortford, Audley End, Cambridge -> King's Lynn
As in the off-peak there was a variety of locals starting northbound from Bishop's Stortford.

Finally there was a non-stop relief to Bishop's Stortford on a Friday at 1834

The through trains from Stratford to the Lea Valley took a break in the peak, though there were trains at 1631, 1705, 1725, 1813 and 1847 from Stratford Low Level (through from North Woolwich) to Palace Gates via Lea Bridge and Seven Sisters.

I hope that gives a flavour of what was on offer more than 50 years ago.

Memory suggests that the Victoria Line knocked the Chingford service back a long way. Of course the development (horrid word!) of Stansted Airport, and the growth of longer distance peak and off-peak traffic, renders the re-creation of the peak service levels on the more local routes an all but impossible task.

 

[matt_world2004]

All sorts of capacity issues between Gospel oak and West Ealing. As it is, the Greenford branch is getting it's own bay platform at West Ealing.

If you want an entertainingly silly idea to make yours seem workable:

Send the District to Uxbridge rather than Ealing Broadway. From Acton, bore new tunnels from the Picadilly line under Ealing Common and Ealing Broadway (with platforms), surfacing at West Ealing where the shops are now to the north of the station. At Greenford, join the Central line to West Ruislip.

Problems (apart from cost) include that the Greenford branch is a useful freight link

1/2 crossrail trains going westbound are going to terminate at Paddington because of capacity issues on the gwml. Would it be hypothetically possible,to send these trains down the new north mainline if it became redouble tracked to West Ruislip effectively making crossrail a central line express.

 

[Be3G]

Is the line from Tottenham to Broxbourne going to be four tracked? I can't imagine it being that hard a job for most of the route as there seems to be room. Wasn't it originally more tracks?

The initial plan is, I think, for one or two extra tracks (I can't remember which) as far as Angel Road, in part to support a massive new Enfield Council housing and shopping development nearby at Meridian Water. As with all railway projects, I believe funding is holding up the progress of extra tracks further northwards, although there is certainly still the aspiration to achieve it.

 

[Stats]

Is the line from Tottenham to Broxbourne going to be four tracked? I can't imagine it being that hard a job for most of the route as there seems to be room. Wasn't it originally more tracks?

The main issue with four tracking is the number of level crossings on the route, some of which look particulary difficult to close.

The draft Route Study proposes four tracking south of Broxbourne as a longer term option, I.e. after CP6. For CP6 it proposes enabling works such as land acquisition and level crossing closures. The RS does state that four tracking south of Tottenham will be "challenging" and that any four tracking without Crossrail 2 will bring only limited benefits due to capacity constraints at Liverpool Street.

However, for the final RS Network Rail will be working with others to understand the benefits early four tracking could bring ahead of a full four tracking or Crossrail 2 scheme.

 

[450.emu]

All sorts of capacity issues between Gospel oak and West Ealing. As it is, the Greenford branch is getting it's own bay platform at West Ealing.

If you want an entertainingly silly idea to make yours seem workable:

Send the District to Uxbridge rather than Ealing Broadway. From Acton, bore new tunnels from the Picadilly line under Ealing Common and Ealing Broadway (with platforms), surfacing at West Ealing where the shops are now to the north of the station. At Greenford, join the Central line to West Ruislip.

Problems (apart from cost) include that the Greenford branch is a useful freight link

That sounds like a good idea BoJo loves spending money like water so perhaps the District Line Extension could be pushed through before he takes over Cameron's job next year? :roll:

We could also send the District back along the Northfields line to Hounslow West to help capacity on the Piccadilly

 

[306024]

.....I hope that gives a flavour of what was on offer more than 50 years ago.

Memory suggests that the Victoria Line knocked the Chingford service back a long way. Of course the development (horrid word!) of Stansted Airport, and the growth of longer distance peak and off-peak traffic, renders the re-creation of the peak service levels on the more local routes an all but impossible task.

Thanks for typing that lot up. Lots has changed in that time. More trains used to use the main lines between Liverpool St and Bethnal Green too, but growth on the GEML has scuppered that now so it all squeezes onto the suburban lines.

 

[jopsuk]

as far as I know, the Lea Valley hasn't ever been properly four-track, but there used to be extsnive loops and sidings?

For four-track from Tottenham to Broxbourne all of the stations will require extensive rebuilding- especially Tottenham Hale. If the tracks are paired by direction (they'll have to be to avoid flat junctions or flyovers) ideally stations that serve all tracks will be "twin island" configuration (like Broxbourne)- the intermediate stations with no fast services can probably get away with just outside platforms.

The crossing at Northumberland Park can probably be done away with- the roads all connect to Watermead Way. Brimsdown will be tricky, as will Enfield Lock. Chesunt will be very difficult, requiring extensive land-take, and will presumably need to have a bay platform (two for better flexibility?) still for Southbury loop services.

Hopefully such a project would mean a rebuild of the horrible narrow road bridge at the south of Broxbourne station

 

[swt_passenger]

1/2 crossrail trains going westbound are going to terminate at Paddington because of capacity issues on the gwml. Would it be hypothetically possible,to send these trains down the new north mainline if it became redouble tracked to West Ruislip effectively making crossrail a central line express.

Of course it would be hypothetically possible, but only by ignoring the existing proposals to take 8 tph up the WCML slow lines. Once you add the London and SE RUS plan to take over Hex by 2023, with 10 tph to Heathrow, then you'd have used up all the initial 24 tph.

 

[glbotu]

as far as I know, the Lea Valley hasn't ever been properly four-track, but there used to be extsnive loops and sidings?

For four-track from Tottenham to Broxbourne all of the stations will require extensive rebuilding- especially Tottenham Hale. If the tracks are paired by direction (they'll have to be to avoid flat junctions or flyovers) ideally stations that serve all tracks will be "twin island" configuration (like Broxbourne)- the intermediate stations with no fast services can probably get away with just outside platforms.

The crossing at Northumberland Park can probably be done away with- the roads all connect to Watermead Way. Brimsdown will be tricky, as will Enfield Lock. Chesunt will be very difficult, requiring extensive land-take, and will presumably need to have a bay platform (two for better flexibility?) still for Southbury loop services.

Hopefully such a project would mean a rebuild of the horrible narrow road bridge at the south of Broxbourne station

Surely paired by use will be easier, if avoiding flat junctions etc is your goal? The slows should use the current pair of tracks and the fasts should move to the newer pair of tracks further east and get sent via Stratford. With Crossrail taking most services off the Electrics into Liverpool Street, everything else can "shift South" at Liverpool Street, with minor trackwork to get trains from the Mains to the Electrics at higher speed before the Temple Mills start to use the Mains.

This basically allows for total segregation of services (except the Lea Valley slows and Chingford stoppers).

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely paired by use will be easier, if avoiding flat junctions etc is your goal? The slows should use the current pair of tracks and the fasts should move to the newer pair of tracks further east and get sent via Stratford. With Crossrail taking most services off the Electrics into Liverpool Street, everything else can "shift South" at Liverpool Street, with minor trackwork to get trains from the Mains to the Electrics at higher speed before the Temple Mills start to use the Mains.

The London and SE RUS explains why that won't happen. There isn't room to do the 'shift south' you suggest until further west towards Bow. But they have plans to use the extra capacity immediately east of Stratford to run more GEML fasts, with a reversible line used in the peak flow direction, and contra peak empties being run to/from Orient Way sidings. (Fig 7.4 page 127 of the RUS refers.)

All the existing proposals for Lea Valley to Liverpool St via Stratford are explained as available in the off-peak only.

 

[Be3G]

One interesting thing I noticed over the bank holiday weekend was TfL/London Overground rail replacement bus direction signs up along roads in the vicinity of the Southbury loop. Some late-night services were run by RRBs, but surely they'd still be under Greater Anglia as the takeover doesn't take place until this Sunday… or were TfL just getting things ready in advance of future closures once they're running the lines?

 

[JaJaWa]

One interesting thing I noticed over the bank holiday weekend was TfL/London Overground rail replacement bus direction signs up along roads in the vicinity of the Southbury loop. Some late-night services were run by RRBs, but surely they'd still be under Greater Anglia as the takeover doesn't take place until this Sunday… or were TfL just getting things ready in advance of future closures once they're running the lines?

It will just be forward planning. I've noticed that TfL actually have permanent signs up for the RRBs unlike most of the other TOCs.

 

[Dan27]

Well it looks like the majority of 315s have now been relocated away from being based at SouVic. Haven't seen one parked in the eastern part of the sidings (the main area) for a few days now. Pleasant in that it's a lot quieter around here now.

 

[dk1]

It will just be forward planning. I've noticed that TfL actually have permanent signs up for the RRBs unlike most of the other TOCs.

Well it looks like the majority of 315s have now been relocated away from being based at SouVic. Haven't seen one parked in the eastern part of the sidings (the main area) for a few days now. Pleasant in that it's a lot quieter around here now.

Not trying to be picky but just noting how often 'parked' is used nowadays. I remember a Production Manager being chastised on an almost daily basis at Crown Point for using this term rather than 'stabled'.

 

[jopsuk]

That sounds like a good idea BoJo loves spending money like water so perhaps the District Line Extension could be pushed through before he takes over Cameron's job next year? :roll:

We could also send the District back along the Northfields line to Hounslow West to help capacity on the Piccadilly

ooh, nice idea- depending upon District frequencies. Part of the idea would be that Picadilly and District would no longer share platforms, allowing the track/platform height to be changed for level boarding

 

[Kite159]

How long will the "Operated by One" sign remain at Upminster once LOROL takes over?

 

[Sleepy]

Depends how friendly C2C want to be to Tfl ??

 

[450.emu]

ooh, nice idea- depending upon District frequencies. Part of the idea would be that Picadilly and District would no longer share platforms, allowing the track/platform height to be changed for level boarding

Not sure if BoJo will have the funds left, especially as another of his vanity project Routemasters was in a smash with a similar bus recently... Looking forward to seeing how things are next week with LO (more Tribute machines to collect, I guess). Will they start putting up new signage on station platforms shortly?


As for Northumberland Park and the level crossing mentioned in an earlier post, that's staying put, access to the bus garage for routes 259 and 476 is needed, so I can't see any changes being made to that.

 

[JaJaWa]

How long will the "Operated by One" sign remain at Upminster once LOROL takes over?

5 minutes?

 

[Dan27]

Not trying to be picky but just noting how often 'parked' is used nowadays. I remember a Production Manager being chastised on an almost daily basis at Crown Point for using this term rather than 'stabled'.

I appreciate the correction. Stabled is a much more elegant word

 

[Chris125]

ooh, nice idea- depending upon District frequencies. Part of the idea would be that Picadilly and District would no longer share platforms, allowing the track/platform height to be changed for level boarding

The far more likely solution to that will be having the Piccadilly replace the District down to Ealing Broadway, making Rayner's Lane-Uxbridge the only shared section of the Picc:

London Reconnections - 'Upgrading the Piccadilly: Calling Time on Mind the Gap?'

 

[physics34]

pics of 317708 or 729 please

 

[AM9]

The far more likely solution to that will be having the Piccadilly replace the District down to Ealing Broadway, making Rayner's Lane-Uxbridge the only shared section of the Picc:

Unfortunately LU wouldn't be able to rationalise the platforms owing to the differing outside conductor rail heights

 

[Chris125]

Unfortunately LU wouldn't be able to rationalise the platforms owing to the differing outside conductor rail heights

Deep Tube trains have a lower floor than Sub Surface and mainline stock, requiring shared platforms to be a compromise height.

I'm not sure what you mean about conductor rail height, as the District and Piccadilly already share the same tracks - IIRC the only non-standard track is on the Central, some of which has a slightly higher positive rail.

 

[387star]

What are the last trains to he operated by AGA on the soon to be expanded overground and tfl (crossrail) routes on saturday night?

 

[greatkingrat]

The 0055 to Shenfield and the 0103 to Chingford.

 

[SPADTrap]

The LOROL 317/7

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm still surprised they're fully reliverying the existing stock. I would have thought it would have made more sense to put stickers on showing the new operator but save the roll out of the full livery for the arrival of the new stock.

 

[CapitalStar378]

I guess it's at least 2 years away until the new stock starts arriving and compared to the old Sliverlink livery this one is pretty easy to change as most of the 315/317's are white.