overlapping advance tickets

[hairyhandedfool]

Is this permissible within the rules on advance tickets?

Taking a hypothetical journey, Bristol - Leeds for example.
Could I buy an advance ticket from Bristol to, say, Derby, and another on the same train from Birmingham to Leeds, if these worked out cheaper than one through ticket (this is a hypothetical example, I've no idea if this would ever be cheaper). I wouldn't be leaving the train at Derby, but would have a valid ticket to continue the journey. I'd have two tickets for the Brum Derby section, could I be deemed to have travelled short by not "using" one of the tickets for this section?

The only real issue I can see is the seat you are sat in (you can't occupy two seats at once and you can't book the same seat twice for the same portion of the journey). A rather pedantic RPI/Guard could argue that you have to occupy both seats simultaneously (if you could book two seats side by side I suppose you could sit in both without putting you feet up), but in reality I think there is only a small chance of that.

Provided you are on the train you are booked on, I can't really see a serious issue with overlapping given the current guidelines and conditions.

If the second Advance came in from another route, there might be an issue with 'break of journey', but as Yorkie says, it does depend on your definition of 'break of journey'.

I personally don't think that stopping/starting short is break of journey (because of the wording of the NCoC), but I also don't think that the industry intend, or want, it to be that way. People have been charged extra for stopping short on an advance on many occasions and I imagine the same could be said of starting short.

 

[route:oxford]

The only real issue I can see is the seat you are sat in (you can't occupy two seats at once and you can't book the same seat twice for the same portion of the journey). A rather pedantic RPI/Guard could argue that you have to occupy both seats simultaneously (if you could book two seats side by side I suppose you could sit in both without putting you feet up), but in reality I think there is only a small chance of that.

Never had a problem with that. Simply buy tickets and book at the station. I've always found booking staff helpful and willing to book a straight-through seat on a split or overlapping journey.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

With walk up tickets it is easy, with advances it's not so easy.

 

[Stats]

From yesterday's Advance fares FAQ

The 'Conditions' show that the ticket is only valid in the seat shown

So it is prohibited as you cannot sit in two seats at once and so one ticket would be invalid for a portion of the journey and you would be deemed to be travelling short when that ticket started (or ended).

 

[N Levers]

From yesterday's Advance fares FAQ

So it is prohibited as you cannot sit in two seats at once and so one ticket would be invalid for a portion of the journey and you would be deemed to be travelling short when that ticket started (or ended).

If the seats end up next to each other I could sit across them...

 

[AlterEgo]

From yesterday's Advance fares FAQ

So it is prohibited as you cannot sit in two seats at once and so one ticket would be invalid for a portion of the journey and you would be deemed to be travelling short when that ticket started (or ended).

In reality this "sit in your own seat only" rule isn't enforced. I've certainly never seen enforced it on any TOC.

 

[route:oxford]

From yesterday's Advance fares FAQ

So it is prohibited as you cannot sit in two seats at once and so one ticket would be invalid for a portion of the journey and you would be deemed to be travelling short when that ticket started (or ended).

Nonsense.

Many advance purchase tickets no longer come with a seat reservation. Megatrain is one of them.

And as I posted earlier, you can book a through seat at your local station at the same time as you purchase your overlapping tickets.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

From yesterday's Advance fares FAQ

So it is prohibited as you cannot sit in two seats at once and so one ticket would be invalid for a portion of the journey and you would be deemed to be travelling short when that ticket started (or ended).

To be fair it also says the guard can let you sit in another seat "if space allows", and as he'd be freeing up one seat for part of the journey, I doubt he'd really moan on those grounds, but as stated, if you can book two seats next to each other, you can sit in both!

 

[bb21]

To be fair it also says the guard can let you sit in another seat "if space allows", and as he'd be freeing up one seat for part of the journey, I doubt he'd really moan on those grounds, but as stated, if you can book two seats next to each other, you can sit in both!

Not if you happen to be on one of Flamingo's trains =P

 

[mralexn]

The thread of the same title 9 months ago produced inconclusive results but it appears that the majority of respondents appeared to be in agreement that there is no rule that prevents it, and therefore it should be permitted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Depends on how you define 'break of journey' and whether you can only be considered to be using one ticket at any one moment in time. I think that anyone would struggle to create such an interpretation that says this breaches break of journey rules.


Depends on where ticket checks take place. In the example given by the OP it would not be a problem due to the guard changing at [stn]BHM[/stn]. So the first ticket would be shown to the first guard, and the second guard would only need to see the second ticket. In another scenario it could of course be quite different.

I was once doubly-valid between two stations, and when presenting both tickets to the guard he looked confused and said I must have paid more than I should. However I pointed out the reasons why I did this, and that it was still cheaper than a through ticket. He was trying to be helpful but ended up quite confused. Some guards don't seem to realise quite how ludicrous our fares structure is, until they encounter people on bizarre tickets.

your so right!! down where i live in (plymouth) it works out cheaper to buy a First Class advance ticket to London Paddington than it does to Exeter, difference being padd is 225 miles away from plymouth and Exeter is only 51 :P , it also works out cheaper to buy an advance ticket from plymouth to Penzance than it does Plymouth to Liskeard!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

your so right!! down where i live in (plymouth) it works out cheaper to buy a First Class advance ticket to London Paddington than it does to Exeter, difference being padd is 225 miles away from plymouth and Exeter is only 51 :P , it also works out cheaper to buy an advance ticket from plymouth to Penzance than it does Plymouth to Liskeard!

Looking for a friend I note that for a Saturday in August, Advance tickets for 2 adults and 1 child Leeds - Scarborough are £22, yet Leeds to Seamer (1 stop before Scarborough!) on the same train are £27.

 

[Max]

Looking for a friend I note that for a Saturday in August, Advance tickets for 2 adults and 1 child Leeds - Scarborough are £22, yet Leeds to Seamer (1 stop before Scarborough!) on the same train are £27.

Because, of course, there is mass demand for the metropolis that is Seamer! :roll:

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Because, of course, there is mass demand for the metropolis that is Seamer! :roll:

There is if you are combining tickets to avoid paying the expensive Leeds to Bridlington fare!

 

[island]

Never had a problem with that. Simply buy tickets and book at the station. I've always found booking staff helpful and willing to book a straight-through seat on a split or overlapping journey.

I've always found that station staff are exceptionally unhelpful and unwilling to sell any advance tickets whatsoever, with the exception of Fenchurch Street.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

I've always found that station staff are exceptionally unhelpful and unwilling to sell any advance tickets whatsoever, with the exception of Fenchurch Street.

I had to read that sentence over and over again to see if I had missed some subtlety, but still can't see it.
All I can reply is:-

Unbelievable!!!!

 

[island]

I had to read that sentence over and over again to see if I had missed some subtlety, but still can't see it.
All I can reply is:-

Unbelievable!!!!

No subtletly. The only times I now use station booking offices are for boundary zone tickets and when I wish to spend rail travel vouchers. And I may stop doing the latter as I hear FGW will do advances with RTVs over the phone, releasing the tickets when you post in the vouchers.

 

[yorkie]

Looking for a friend I note that for a Saturday in August, Advance tickets for 2 adults and 1 child Leeds - Scarborough are £22, yet Leeds to Seamer (1 stop before Scarborough!) on the same train are £27.

I looked into this and the Advance fares (at each pricing level) to Seamer really are higher than to Scarborough! Perhaps the pricing manager thought Seamer is further away than Scarborough?

 

[maniacmartin]

This recent thread got me thinking about a related (but not identical) hypothetical question.

Suppose I have 2 Advance tickets, valid on Booked Train only and no BoJ allowed.

Ticket 1 has route A-B-C
Ticket 2 has route B-C-D

The times match up and the train calls at either B or C. Does using this combination count as a Break of Journey on one of them, or can a passenger travel on two tickets at once?

My instinct says that this combination would not be allowed, however NRCoC 19(b) doesn't explicitly forbid this.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If B-C is booked on the same train for both tickets, I think you would be allowed to do it by most Guards/TMs, but I don't think it would be strictly allowed in the rules as you would have to occupy both seats, that have been reserved, at the same time for both the tickets to be valid.

If you have not managed to occupy two seats at the same time and have managed to get a Guard/TM who gives a [Monkeys], I think you have to face the argument of whether you are stopping/starting short or not on one or both of the tickets.

This does not take account of '+Connections' tickets, or where you change trains at B and/or C, or unreservable services though.

 

[jopsuk]

I think it would need to call at both B and C, and you may have trouble using both seats simultaneously (unless you manage to get them adjacent!)

 

[maniacmartin]

Its quite easy to get adjacent seats if booking tickets at the same time, especially on sites like East Coast, where you can pick your seats. I'm sure I could slouch across 2 seats

If the tickets were not Advances, but off-peak walk-up tickets that didn't permit BoJ, there wouldn't be the problem of having to sit in the reserved seat, but there is still some ambiguity as to whether 19(b) can apply.

 

[jopsuk]

Come to think of it, to be able to book the tickets described, the train would have to stop at both B&C, so that bits is irrelevant. You can't book a ticket to or from a station at which the train doesn't stop!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That would be true if the same train is booked for both tickets, but not necessarily true if they are booked on different trains.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I wonder if you were aware that the last time we discussed this, the thread even had exactly the same title: overlapping advance tickets
and the time before that, it had . . . . . . wait for it . . . . . . . exactly the same title : Overlapping advance tickets

 

[jopsuk]

That would be true if the same train is booked for both tickets, but not necessarily true if they are booked on different trains.

If they're Booked Train Only tickets, then unless a "& Connections" section is involved, they have to be on the same train as otherwise there's no question of whether or not the combination is valid!

 

[pjnathanail]

I have been wondering about advance tickets, (perhaps relavent to this), if I (say) have an EastMidsTrains only advance from Nottingham to London, get off at Leicester but don't leave the station, I just use the WHSmith (not a break of journey under NRCoC), but obviously my ticket is not valid on any other trains. Am I in a state of perpetual "limbo" at Leicester? What could/should I do? Is this perhaps a way of getting round the No BoJ on advance tickets?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If they're Booked Train Only tickets, then unless a "& Connections" section is involved, they have to be on the same train as otherwise there's no question of whether or not the combination is valid!

Not necessarily, some Advance fares have geographic routes and some trains may pass stations that other trains of the same TOC miss. For example, a St Pancras-Leicester 'EMT Only' ticket with a Market Harborough-Nottingham 'EMT Only' ticket where travel from St Pancras to Nottingham is by a train that does not call at Market Harborough (all EMT 'mainline' services call at Leicester), meaning a connecting EMT service is booked for Market Harborough-Leicester.

 

[jopsuk]

But he specified "Booked Train Only" in the original post. You couldn't use a "Booked Train Only" ticket from Market Harborough on a train that didn't stop there. You wouldn't be able to buy one for a train that didn't stop there. You're suggesting situations other than that asked about.

 

[kieron]

"Yes, my bag does have a ticket. Have you tried the next carriage?"

As for article 6, my bag isn't actually a legal person.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I did say that i both tickets were booked on the same train (over that distance) that the train would have to call at both, but if they were not, the train might not call at both.

Market Harborough to Leicester would be on a 222 or an HST, both reservable, St Pancras to Nottingham would be on a 222 or an HST, both reservable.

The op said "Suppose I have 2 Advance tickets, valid on Booked Train only", he did not say that they were booked on the same train.