Oyster charging on "Loop" services

[Urban Gateline]

Ok so we know that if the maximum journey time is not exceeded when using Oyster PAYG, then the fare charged depends on where one touches in and out.

On "Loop" services on TOC's, such as the Kingston or Hounslow loop on South West Trains, would it theoretically be possible to:

*Travel the Long way around the loop, say for instance starting off at Hounslow, touching in there, taking the train via Twickenham to London Waterloo and then taking another Hounslow loop train back from Waterloo to Isleworth via Barnes Bridge. Then only getting charged the Oyster fare of Hounslow to Isleworth (1 stop £2 peak/£1.60 off peak z4-5 fare)?

I have always wondered how this is approached by RPI's, if say the person doing it was checked on leaving Isleworth but the train they came off was seen coming from the London direction rather than the Country direction where the original touch in was at Hounslow. I know that if checked on the train the "touch in" must be taken as valid unless the max journey time has meant that the journey expired.

Could it be seem as an MG11 case of attempting to avoid the fare, or is the long route around the loop valid regardless of the other zones passed through but not paid for?

The Oyster system on loop trains is something that fascinates me, I think it shows how smartcard systems can be open to abuse and that Oyster has little facility to consider the route taken when charging a fare!

 

[yorkie]

You have asked this before. The answers remain the same.

Could it be seem as an MG11 case of attempting to avoid the fare,

Absolutely not.

or is the long route around the loop valid regardless of the other zones passed through but not paid for?

You touch in, you touch out, the system charges you. This eliminates any such problems of validity.

The only issues would occur if the passenger exceeds the maximum journey time, then 2 x maximum fares are charged.

The Oyster system on loop trains is something that fascinates me, I think it shows how smartcard systems can be open to abuse and that Oyster has little facility to consider the route taken when charging a fare!

On the contrary, the complete and absolute opposite is true. Oyster PAYG almost completely eliminates 'abuse', it really does not matter if people go a longer way round on Oyster as they are charged for the journey actually made.

This is in complete contrast with paper tickets, where someone could legitimately travel a long way round under the through trains rule, and may then (not legitimately) be tempted able to 'get away with' exiting at a station with a higher fare by 'finishing short' if the barriers were open.

 

[benk1342]

The Oyster system on loop trains is something that fascinates me, I think it shows how smartcard systems can be open to abuse and that Oyster has little facility to consider the route taken when charging a fare!

But it's not really much of an abuse if all you are doing is riding in a circle and not getting off. If you broke your journey along the way you would have to touch out, and would be charged appropriately.

 

[Deerfold]

The Oyster system on loop trains is something that fascinates me, I think it shows how smartcard systems can be open to abuse and that Oyster has little facility to consider the route taken when charging a fare!

But you're risking paying much more if you go over the time limits (caused by, say, a short delay on your last train) to not go anywhere extra - I don't think anyone except those who want to sit on a train as long as possible (which is not most people) would gain anything.

As the time limits are mostly very reasonable and you would be able to be refunded if doing a sensible journey with major delays, it seems to be set up reasonably sensibly.

 

[Urban Gateline]

This is in complete contrast with paper tickets, where someone could legitimately travel a long way round under the through trains rule, and may then (not legitimately) be tempted able to 'get away with' exiting at a station with a higher fare by 'finishing short' if the barriers were open.

True, where is this "through trains" rule documented?

 

[Mojo]

True, where is this "through trains" rule documented?

Condition 13 of the National Rail Conditions of Carnage:

(a)	You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:

(i)	a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;

 

[Urban Gateline]

Condition 13 of the National Rail Conditions of Carnage:

(a)	You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:

(i)	a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;

Hmm interesting, that says you may not change trains...you would have to on any of the loop trains as they are not literally non-stop without terminating, a change somewhere along the line would be needed as the same train does not always work it back the other way via the loop!

 

[maniacmartin]

Hmm interesting, that says you may not change trains...you would have to on any of the loop trains as they are not literally non-stop without terminating, a change somewhere along the line would be needed as the same train does not always work it back the other way via the loop!

When the NRCOC was written. I suspect by 'train' here they meant 'train service' or similar, so the same physical train in a subsequent scheduled service would still be changing. However, what's written is 'train'. I wonder if any journeys exist where it is advantageous to remain on the same train as it starts a new service.

If engineering work causes a train to be terminated short, with passengers conveyed for the rest of their journey by RRBus or another train that they would not usually need to change to, would that be changing trains as per 13b I wonder...

 

[34D]

This is in complete contrast with paper tickets, where someone could legitimately travel a long way round under the through trains rule, and may then (not legitimately) be tempted able to 'get away with' exiting at a station with a higher fare by 'finishing short' if the barriers were open.

Though if the ticket allows break of journey, there isn't a problem.

If we ignore what may happen upon arrival at Waterloo (noting these trains are in the timetable and in live departures as Waterloo-Waterloo) then I am of the opinion a Waterloo-Wandsworth town ticket is valid on all direct services, and to break journey at (example) kingston or Strawberry Hill provided the journey is resumed on a train that is also a direct train between Waterloo and Wandsworth Town.

Hounslow to Barnes Bridge is in my opinion NOT valid via Waterloo (as at Waterloo one would have to change trains, as knowledge of interworking is irrelevant to NRCOC.