Oyster travelcard and Gatwick Express services

[bravesirrobin]

Hi All,

My Brighton - Z1-6 annual travelcard is up for renewal shortly. This thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=74393 prompted me to consider splitting the ticket into a Brighton - Z4-6 paper ticket and a Z1-3 Oyster, simply for the convenience of being able to use Oyster around London. I understand this should be valid on the Brighton - London expresses.

I usually take the 0557 from Hove to CLJ in the mornings, returning from Victoria to Brighton on the 1706. However, sometimes I'm late leaving work and take one of the Gatwick Express services back to Brighton. My question is two-fold: is my ticket valid on these services, and given the newly-installed barriers at Victoria, which don't have Oyster readers, am I likely to have difficulty boarding the train?

Thanks!
Leigh

 

[Mojo]

My Brighton - Z1-6 annual travelcard is up for renewal shortly. This thread http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=74393 prompted me to consider splitting the ticket into a Brighton - Z4-6 paper ticket and a Z1-3 Oyster, simply for the convenience of being able to use Oyster around London. I understand this should be valid on the Brighton - London expresses.

Unfortunately this combination is not valid as in your instance both tickets are period season products. If you were combining a Single/Return and an Annual, this would be valid, but the train must stop at the point at which two Season tickets (which includes an Annual Travelcard) meet.

Sorry did not see that your other ticket was to Zone 4-6.

 

[MikeWh]

Unfortunately this combination is not valid as in your instance both tickets are period season products. If you were combining a Single/Return and an Annual, this would be valid, but the train must stop at the point at which two Season tickets (which includes an Annual Travelcard) meet.

Surely they're both zonal so the train doesn't need to stop?

 

[Deerfold]

Unfortunately this combination is not valid as in your instance both tickets are period season products. If you were combining a Single/Return and an Annual, this would be valid, but the train must stop at the point at which two Season tickets (which includes an Annual Travelcard) meet.

So where do they meet?! Most unlike you...

 

[johnnycache]

I work for Southern

Here is the relevant part of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets unless special conditions prohibit their use in this way. The Ticket Seller will, if you ask, advise you whether you can use a Zonal Ticket in combination with another ticket.

(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;

or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/ are not.

You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).

If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid.

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:
(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or
(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days
and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes.

If you hold two zonal season tickets then condition 19 (a) applies
19 (c) is not complied with but that doesn't matter as only one of a) b) and c) needs to be satisfied

 

[bb21]

I work for Southern

Here is the relevant part of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets unless special conditions prohibit their use in this way. The Ticket Seller will, if you ask, advise you whether you can use a Zonal Ticket in combination with another ticket.

(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;
...

Very conveniently I get to highlight the relevant clauses validating the OP's combination.

 

[jon0844]

I can confirm that the combination is fine.. I did the same when I commuted and have a letter from FCC to confirm.

Sadly, that didn't stop me getting stopped one day by an RPI newly promoted to the fraud investigation team who insisted Z1-3 and 4-6 wasn't valid as I needed a ticket marked 3-4 to 'bridge the gap' and attempted to start a prosecution against me, but that was soon sorted!

As both are zonal tickets, you're just fine and you get the benefit of using Oyster in and around town.

Just remember one thing though; If you travel around in London with your combined tickets - you'll touch in with your Oyster but now find yourself in the rather awkward situation of how to properly touch out. As I also had PAYG credit on the card, I accidentally touched out with my Oyster when I was outside Z3 and got charged for the extension.

So, you really do need to remember to check what zone you are in and use the paper ticket for Z4-6!

 

[SAPhil]

I've considered doing this but decided against it because of the potential difficulties with delay repay claims! Suppose it depends on how often you need to make them!

 

[jon0844]

I rarely bothered to claim, but I am sure you could claim off both travelcards. I'm sure it would have been messier though.

 

[bravesirrobin]

Thanks for the responses, guys. I'll definitely give it a go. Out of interest, does anyone know if I'd be able to buy the Oyster travelcard in Croydon, or if I'd need to travel all the way up to Victoria? I'm not going to be commuting over Christmas when the ticket expires.

 

[MikeWh]

You can buy Oyster products at East Croydon.

 

[Urban Gateline]

One thing I find interesting about this split season ticket plan is how do the Gatwick Express employees deal with it? It was pointed out that there are no Oyster readers to access those platforms, so one would have to approach a member of Barrier staff, and if they do not have an Oyster checking device, then they may just have to believe what the passenger is saying and allow them in.
I doubt Gatwick Express employees would have Oyster checkers as most people using their service will be using paper tickets, hence the thought!

 

[tony6499]

Went through the gateline on 13/14 at Victoria and noticed an Oyster reader there but it is so well hidden you could easily miss it. It's tucked behind the corner up against the wall of Burger King.

Staff were pointing it out to customers who needed it so they are aware of people using Oysters there.

 

[Mojo]

One thing I find interesting about this split season ticket plan is how do the Gatwick Express employees deal with it? It was pointed out that there are no Oyster readers to access those platforms, so one would have to approach a member of Barrier staff, and if they do not have an Oyster checking device, then they may just have to believe what the passenger is saying and allow them in.
I doubt Gatwick Express employees would have Oyster checkers as most people using their service will be using paper tickets, hence the thought!

I suppose it would be no different from customers holding Boundary Zone 6 - Reading/Milton Keynes tickets, trying to travel on First Great Western HSTs/Virgin as their onboard staff or gatelines wouldn't have the capability of reading Oyster either.

 

[yorkie]

There are no employees of Gatwick Express any more (they are Southern employees now) as it ceased to be a Company in late 2008 and the name became a brand for some services operated by Southern, but while it looks like tony6499 has the answer in this case, if any staff member who is checking tickets is not in a position to inspect an Oyster card, then as Urban Gateline says, they have to believe the passenger.

This has always been the case with Oyster Travelcards, here is an article from 7 years ago:

http://www.alycidon.com/ALYCIDON%20RAIL/INFORMED%20SOURCES%20ARCHIVE/INF%20SRCS%202005/Informed%20Sources%2010%202005%20p2.htm

So, the message is that if you roll up at a station with an Oyster travel card you are entitled to pay the boundary excess. If your friendly local TOC (and I must try this one the team at Welwyn Garden City) wants proof of the validity of the Travelcard it is up to the managers to provide the ticket office staff with readers

Some passengers have had problems, as documented on the Virgin Strains website. If anyone experiences problems they need to ensure they are dealt with, and I am happy to assist anyone by proof reading any letters of complaint if anyone experiences staff who attempt to deny legitimate travel.

 

[bravesirrobin]

One thing I find interesting about this split season ticket plan is how do the Gatwick Express employees deal with it? It was pointed out that there are no Oyster readers to access those platforms, so one would have to approach a member of Barrier staff, and if they do not have an Oyster checking device, then they may just have to believe what the passenger is saying and allow them in.
I doubt Gatwick Express employees would have Oyster checkers as most people using their service will be using paper tickets, hence the thought!

It did occur to me today that the last time I had an annual travelcard on Oyster, it was issued with a paper gold record card. I think I'll make a point of carrying that along with the Oyster.

 

[maniacmartin]

If employees want to be able to check Oyster season tickets, then their TOC should issue them with Oyster readers. Lack of ticket reading equipment is of no concern to the passenger

 

[elagueesti]

There are no employees of Gatwick Express any more (they are Southern employees now) as it ceased to be a Company in late 2008 and the name became a brand for some services operated by Southern, but while it looks like tony6499 has the answer in this case, if any staff member who is checking tickets is not in a position to inspect an Oyster card, then as Urban Gateline says, they have to believe the passenger.

This has always been the case with Oyster Travelcards, here is an article from 7 years ago:

http://www.alycidon.com/ALYCIDON%20RAIL/INFORMED%20SOURCES%20ARCHIVE/INF%20SRCS%202005/Informed%20Sources%2010%202005%20p2.htm



Some passengers have had problems, as documented on the Virgin Strains website. If anyone experiences problems they need to ensure they are dealt with, and I am happy to assist anyone by proof reading any letters of complaint if anyone experiences staff who attempt to deny legitimate travel.

I was told by staff at Euston that I can't buy a 1-6 paper travel card and a boundary zone 6 to Milton Keynes ticket - is that right?

 

[island]

No it isn't. Which booking office was it?

 

[elagueesti]

It was at London Euston and the staff were Virgin.

 

[bb21]

I was told by staff at Euston that I can't buy a 1-6 paper travel card and a boundary zone 6 to Milton Keynes ticket - is that right?

Ask them what they expect you to buy.

 

[elagueesti]

Will do next time! She sold me a Virgin only off-peak return.

 

[bb21]

Will do next time! She sold me a Virgin only off-peak return.

But that is not suitable for people needing unlimited travel within London.

 

[elagueesti]

No, but I'd already bought the paper Zones 1-6 and had it with me. She said I couldn't buy a boundary zone 6 to MKC and use it on their trains but could on London Midland. I saw on the news that LM were up the spout of late (to put it mildly) so was wanting to travel on Virgin. Not wanting to spend any longer debating the issue I paid up for the Virgin ticket and left.

 

[yorkie]

No, but I'd already bought the paper Zones 1-6 and had it with me. She said I couldn't buy a boundary zone 6 to MKC and use it on their trains but could on London Midland. I saw on the news that LM were up the spout of late (to put it mildly) so was wanting to travel on Virgin. Not wanting to spend any longer debating the issue I paid up for the Virgin ticket and left.

That was incorrect. I suggest you write to complain. I'd normally say keep it concise but with Virgin you tend to get better results if you write a detailed, longer letter. Ask them what steps they will take to ensure their staff act correctly and impartially in future.

I'm happy to proof read.

 

[elagueesti]

If I still had the tickets, I would! I shall remember it next time I go to MKC though.

Out of interest, do you know how much I'd have saved by getting a BZ6 - MKC ticket? Ideally I'd have liked an any trains ticket, as I could have then caught the next train, whether it was LM or Virgin on the return journey (not so fussed about the length of the return journey, but on the first leg I did need to be there on time, hence opting for Virgin). MKC station is bloody cold at the best of times!

 

[yorkie]

It depends on whether you wanted the flexibilty to use LM on your return journey or not?

If you were willing to accept that loss of flexibility, the ticket you were sold was cheapest however the ticket you requested was still valid so you were still given incorrect information.

If a TOC wants to promote its own TOC specific tickets, that's fair enough, but they need to provide accurate advice, failure to do so is a breach of the rules on impartial retailing.

 

[elagueesti]

Would have been nice to have had the flexibility. But as you rightly point out, it would have been nice to know exactly what my options are so I can decide what I want to do myself based upon all the relevant information!

 

[bb21]

I think she might have been trying to help you save money, however the reason she gave was incorrect as already pointed out.

The only route for Boundary Zone 6 - Milton Keynes Central is Any Permitted, which is more expensive than Route VIRGIN TRNSONLY on all off-peak ticket types.

 

[elagueesti]

How much more expensive is it?