Passenger etiquette?

[Shaun Twails]

Unfortunately this happens all the time, it's a very common issue. I would also move on in this case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crowding around doors on the platform when a train arrives making it difficult for people to alight is my bugbear.

If people do that I tend to stand blocking the door and, if "excuse me please" doesn't work, just say "if you don't move out of the way I can't get off so you're not getting on".

On only one occasion that resulted in some complete idiot ducking under my arms to board.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately this happens all the time, it's a very common issue. I would also move on in this case.

I wouldn't, I'd tell (not ask) them to shift. Mainly because now VTWC has a seat selector, I normally reserve a window seat in a priority row to ensure legroom. (On Pendolinos only the aisle seats of each pair are priority seats; you can still pick the aisle seats but obviously risk being evicted because someone else needs it more).

If you are going to take a seat marked reserved on the assumption they won't turn up, you need to be ready and willing to shift as soon as they do, without arguing or even in any way suggesting you should not.

Though I do equally think the German model of "claim it or lose it" should apply here, as taking another seat and expecting your reserved one to also remain spare is not fair. Mind you once I had a totally ridiculous situation occur - I had claimed the seat and put my coat on it, and gone to the buffet car, and when I came back someone was sitting there and had moved my coat and said he thought it was lost property. He did at least apologise and move.

 

[Flying Snail]

I wouldn't, I'd tell (not ask) them to shift. Mainly because now VTWC has a seat selector, I normally reserve a window seat in a priority row to ensure legroom. (On Pendolinos only the aisle seats of each pair are priority seats; you can still pick the aisle seats but obviously risk being evicted because someone else needs it more).

If you are going to take a seat marked reserved on the assumption they won't turn up, you need to be ready and willing to shift as soon as they do, without arguing or even in any way suggesting you should not.

Though I do equally think the German model of "claim it or lose it" should apply here, as taking another seat and expecting your reserved one to also remain spare is not fair. Mind you once I had a totally ridiculous situation occur - I had claimed the seat and put my coat on it, and gone to the buffet car, and when I came back someone was sitting there and had moved my coat and said he thought it was lost property. He did at least apologise and move.

So you think it's acceptable to occupy one seat and keep a second reserved seat available to you for a whole journey?

If somebody attempted to turf me out of a seat that they decided to claim after sitting elsewhere for over an hour then they'd get short shrift. Completely selfish behaviour, expecting another passenger to act as a human placeholder for them to be moved on like a seat filler at the oscars when a celebrity turns up.

There is of course a simple solution to all the seat reservation aggro, do away with reservations entirely.

 

[Termy]

do away with reservations entirely.

This is a whole 'nother conversation, but... Never gonna happen. This is a non-solution, as it impacts on people a lot more. I am technically disabled, and rely on seat reservations to be able to sit. I shouldn't have to stand for a whole long-distance service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you think it's acceptable to occupy one seat and keep a second reserved seat available to you for a whole journey?

Can I suggest you re-read my whole posting, in particular this bit, prior to commencing a rant?

Though I do equally think the German model of "claim it or lose it" should apply here

There is of course a simple solution to all the seat reservation aggro, do away with reservations entirely.

I think you would these days probably find more of the general public in favour of compulsory reservations than abolition. Personally I lean towards unmarked reservations - if you want to sit in a reserved coach, you MUST obtain a reservation (from many sources right up to and indeed after departure, i.e. ticket office, TVM, phone, buffet car, guard etc), if you don't have one you will be moved on.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

If I'm sitting in what all signs point to is a no-show, and then someone moves from another seat and tells me to move, I'd tell them that they were already sitting in another seat and ergo they can jog on.

 

[diffident]

...Mind you once I had a totally ridiculous situation occur - I had claimed the seat and put my coat on it, and gone to the buffet car, and when I came back someone was sitting there and had moved my coat and said he thought it was lost property. He did at least apologise and move.

This has happened to me on numerous occasions, and on different routes. It generally used to happen when Virgin XC ran Birmingham - Brighton, a journey I made every 6 weeks or so for two years. It was not uncommon to leave my coat on the seat, and bags on the overhead rack, pop to the buffet only to come back and find that my coat now resided with my bags in the rack and my seat occupied.

It's also happened in more modern times on Birmingham - Plymouth XC services.

That sort of behaviour does now make me think twice about getting up to use the WC or go to the Buffet.

 

[Table 52]

I think a good way to stop this sort of nonsense would be a rule in place that a ticket which has a seat reservation printed on it isn't valid on any other seat on that train. Yes, you'd have chaos at first, with people unhappy at being moved etc, but after a few months, people would know that they had to sit in the seat given to them and equally, if you sit in a reserved seat, you have to be prepared to move because another passenger has an obligation to take it, rather than an option to.

(For clarity, unless an advance, the ticket would remain valid on other trains, but with no reservation. Plans do change and all that.)

 

[Flying Snail]

Can I suggest you re-read my whole posting, in particular this bit, prior to commencing a rant?

In your first paragraph you would attempt to kick someone out of reserved seat, in second paragraph you would equally like a system where after 15mns you would not be allowed to do so.

A bit contradictory don't you think?

I think you would these days probably find more of the general public in favour of compulsory reservations than abolition.

The genaral public are idiots with little understanding of what they are offering opinions on and making decisions based on populism more often than not leads to a disaster.

Personally I lean towards unmarked reservations - if you want to sit in a reserved coach, you MUST obtain a reservation (from many sources right up to and indeed after departure, i.e. ticket office, TVM, phone, buffet car, guard etc), if you don't have one you will be moved on.

How is sub-dividing trains into further "classes" going to solve anything, it'll just lead to more seat shuffling and confrontation, sure keeping 1st class free from interlopers is a regular issue, imagine how many will ignore a reservation-non reservation distinction between 2 std class carriages.

I don't really want a wholesale ban on reservations but the current situation has gone too far the other way with people getting inclusive reservations and then ignoring them because they prefer the look of other unreserved seats/other people's reserved seats.

Making reservations for all fares a chargeable add-on would cut down the numbers using them and make people value them more if they actually have to pay for them.

Realistically though it is selfish behaviour that is the main problem here, people sitting in other people's reserved seats or people with reservations intentionally taking up unreserved seats while expecting their reservations to be enforceable at any point in a journey. Honestly I don't see any system that mixes reservations and walk-up passengers being orderly run given how many people these days only consider themselves and react to any challenge of their behaviour with abuse or aggression.

 

[richa2002]

I think a good way to stop this sort of nonsense would be a rule in place that a ticket which has a seat reservation printed on it isn't valid on any other seat on that train. Yes, you'd have chaos at first, with people unhappy at being moved etc, but after a few months, people would know that they had to sit in the seat given to them and equally, if you sit in a reserved seat, you have to be prepared to move because another passenger has an obligation to take it, rather than an option to.

(For clarity, unless an advance, the ticket would remain valid on other trains, but with no reservation. Plans do change and all that.)

This should only happen if all TOCs offer a seat selector so you can book your optimal seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In your first paragraph you would attempt to kick someone out of reserved seat, in second paragraph you would equally like a system where after 15mns you would not be allowed to do so.

A bit contradictory don't you think?

No, not at all. I would kick someone out of my seat on boarding, as I've reserved that seat from the seat selector for a reason, and I want that seat, otherwise I'd just have bought a walk-up (which I usually do anyway, I just sometimes like to reserve in order to get Coach A Seat 45 on a Pendolino which is without doubt the best seat on the train for a lone traveller with luggage wishing to relax - extra legroom, non priority, subdued lighting, no through traffic other than staff and luggage space behind the seats opposite). That's what the post I replied to was saying.

I wouldn't return to a reserved seat having sat elsewhere.

Making reservations for all fares a chargeable add-on would cut down the numbers using them and make people value them more if they actually have to pay for them.

I would agree they should be chargeable. I'd suggest £2, with £1 refunded if you cancel it in advance of the booking deadline (if NRS could be modified to handle this). People cancelling reservations they are not going to use would increase the credibility of the system.

Realistically though it is selfish behaviour that is the main problem here, people sitting in other people's reserved seats or people with reservations intentionally taking up unreserved seats while expecting their reservations to be enforceable at any point in a journey. Honestly I don't see any system that mixes reservations and walk-up passengers being orderly run given how many people these days only consider themselves and react to any challenge of their behaviour with abuse or aggression.

An option would be to actually enforce a penalty for failure to move.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This should only happen if all TOCs offer a seat selector so you can book your optimal seat.

Agreed, we need a national system for seat selection for all TOCs accessible to all booking sites.

I'd happily pay a fee to use this, FWIW. I do on a plane.

£2 for a reservation (for outward/return leg, not per train), £5 for a seat selected reservation, perhaps?

 

[sheff1]

I think a good way to stop this sort of nonsense would be a rule in place that a ticket which has a seat reservation printed on it isn't valid on any other seat on that train.

So if I am travelling with someone else and we change seats at some point (after one of us goes to the buffet, say) we are both now travelling on invalid tickets ?

Or, if on the way to the buffet, I spot a friend and sit down in the empty seat next to them whilst we have a brief chat, I would be travelling illegally ?

 

[BJames]

So if I am travelling with someone else and we change seats at some point (after one of us goes to the buffet, say) we are both now travelling on invalid tickets ?

Or, if on the way to the buffet, I spot a friend and sit down in the empty seat next to them whilst we have a brief chat, I would be travelling illegally ?

I have heard announcements before on some TOCs from Train Managers that have said that you must travel in the seat that you are allocated if you are on an advance ticket - I'm not sure if this is a common company policy though.

Looking at the National Rail Terms and Conditions for Advance tickets (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46546.aspx) it actually does state: Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).

People need to be more aware of the use of seat reservations and if a seat is reserved, you are entitled to that seat and you should take it. If you don't take it then, you are not entitled to have it an hour into the journey.

 

[DavidGrain]

I was under the impression that reserved seats not claimed within 10 minutes of departure could be used by any passenger. I think I might have heard this from a Virgin guard.

Have found this comment on a BBC news website https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37177261

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has been criticised after being filmed sitting on the floor on a Virgin train when there were apparently seats available. So, on a busy train, can you sit in reserved but empty seats?

• You can sit in reserved seats on inter-city trains if the person who made the reservation doesn't turn up
• But there's no signage that tells you to do this

Unfortunately it does not show the authority for this statement so I am assuming it is in the T & C somewhere

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is something that would be made better with signage. I would suggest the following, which could be placed on every other window pillar, say.

1. You have to claim your reserved seat within 10 minutes of departure of the start of your reservation. If you do not, the seat is available for anyone to take. However note that leaving the seat free for a short period to use the lavatory or buffet car still constitutes being claimed.

2. If reservations are not placed/displayed on the screens, they still do / do not apply. (Which of these it is doesn't overly matter - it just needs everyone to sing from the same hymn sheet!

 

[gg1]

I think a good way to stop this sort of nonsense would be a rule in place that a ticket which has a seat reservation printed on it isn't valid on any other seat on that train. Yes, you'd have chaos at first, with people unhappy at being moved etc, but after a few months, people would know that they had to sit in the seat given to them and equally, if you sit in a reserved seat, you have to be prepared to move because another passenger has an obligation to take it, rather than an option to.

If that was the rule it it would be a dis-incentive to travel by train as far as I'm concerned. If the person who happens to be in the seat next to my reserved one is someone I don't particularly want to sit next to (eg drunk, BO, playing music through headphones at an obnoxiously loud volume etc), I would like the choice to find a seat elsewhere, or even stand if no others are available.

 

[SomethingRoyal]

It’s quite a hit-and-miss subject for many, however for some their opinions are quite clear. For me, I’m the latter.

If you reserve a seat for your journey however decide to sit in another seat (also reserved), you have then relinquished your right to the seat you reserved in the first place, regardless of the reason. If someone was in the seat you reserved prior to you arriving, you tell, not ask, them to move. It might seem harsh, but if you ask them then you’re inviting a yes or no response, which defeats the point if you’ll only fight one of the answers anyway.

A) They chose to sit in a seat that wasn’t the one they reserved.
B) They chose to sit in a RESERVED seat that wasn’t the one they reserved.

The fact you still were willing to move is just simply kindness on your part. I wouldn’t have personally, however I’m not too bothered if someone kicks off at me for it because in my eyes it’s their fault. Some people just want to avoid any issue which is understandable.

That’s my opinion anyway.

 

[DenmarkRail]

Point 1) If you book a seat, that is your seat. If you choose to sit in a better seat, and then move back to your seat, you can. There shouldnt be someone sitting in your reserved seat. If it was down to me, the ticket inspector should check seating reservations as well as tickets. I believe they do this in Asian nations.

Point 2) If someone refuses to move from the seat, which they often do, then it should be contributed as anti social behaviour. It is essentially stealing.

 

[GW43125]

Personally, I think if you choose to sit somewhere else, tough. Don't expect to be able to move back.

If I'm on a train with paper reservations and I choose to sit somewhere else, I will (provided that there isn't another reservation for after I get off) remove the ticket from the seat. It's only fair, surely?

 

[DanTrain]

Point 1) If you book a seat, that is your seat. If you choose to sit in a better seat, and then move back to your seat, you can. There shouldnt be someone sitting in your reserved seat. If it was down to me, the ticket inspector should check seating reservations as well as tickets. I believe they do this in Asian nations.

So you’re saying that 20% of seats should just remain empty as the reserver hasn’t turned up? People should just stand in the aisles instead, getting in the way of the trolley and of people with limited mobility?

Point 2) If someone refuses to move from the seat, which they often do, then it should be contributed as anti social behaviour. It is essentially stealing.

Well should it be ASB or stealing, they’re very different crimes. I would agree that yiu might involve the BTP, but only either at a convenient point for the service or by taking down details. It would be a stupid thing to delay a train for! Also, I think a fine would do quite well enough rather than the prison sentence/community service ASB or stealing could incur - surely it’s a civil offence not a criminal one!

 

[Mag_seven]

If you choose to sit in a better seat, and then move back to your seat, you can.

It doesn't work like that.

 

[DavidGrain]

Last time I had a seat reservation the guard asked to see my seat reservation as well as my travel ticket but normally I have only shown my travel ticket. I have read somewhere that a common fraud that the guard has to look out for is someone holding a seat ticket and making a play of searching through pockets for the travel ticket. Then someone else in another part of the train producing a travel ticket without its accompanying seat reservation.

 

[DanTrain]

Last time I had a seat reservation the guard asked to see my seat reservation as well as my travel ticket but normally I have only shown my travel ticket. I have read somewhere that a common fraud that the guard has to look out for is someone holding a seat ticket and making a play of searching through pockets for the travel ticket. Then someone else in another part of the train producing a travel ticket without its accompanying seat reservation.

Is it actually a requirement to have a reservation part on you though. No ticket = no travel, the reservation is only for a seat surely.

 

[DavidGrain]

Is it actually a requirement to have a reservation part on you though. No ticket = no travel, the reservation is only for a seat surely.

Agreed but apparently some people have tried it on and unless the guard has enforced the purchase of another ticket they have got away with it

 

[DanTrain]

Agreed but apparently some people have tried it on and unless the guard has enforced the purchase of another ticket they have got away with it

Well that’s the TOCs problem, make them but another ticket then they can claim it back if they find the other part.

 

[Termy]

Agreed but apparently some people have tried it on and unless the guard has enforced the purchase of another ticket they have got away with it

The seat reservation ticket isn't a valid ticket to travel on. They say that on them, don't they? Ergo, guards would ask for the other ticket, or sell a valid ticket/start penalty fare procedures (delete as appropriate).

 

[387star]

years ago on a packed 2 car wessex 158 from Bristol a couple refused to give up their seats which we had reserved...

what can you do

 

[BJames]

Point 1) If you book a seat, that is your seat. If you choose to sit in a better seat, and then move back to your seat, you can. There shouldnt be someone sitting in your reserved seat. If it was down to me, the ticket inspector should check seating reservations as well as tickets. I believe they do this in Asian nations.

Point 2) If someone refuses to move from the seat, which they often do, then it should be contributed as anti social behaviour. It is essentially stealing.

Point 1 is ridiculous. If you want to sit in a better seat that is unreserved then do so, and as also mentioned above, if it is a paper ticket and there is no other reservation on there, you could remove the ticket just to be helpful and help other people find a seat. But if you move, expect your original seat to be gone, and the way I see it, you don't have the right to demand a seat you have chosen not to use.