Passenger Numbers, Autumn 2022

[43096]

Utility costs rocketing, so reducing WFH?

Unlikely, as the cost of commuting is usually more than the extra cost of utilities from WFH. If anything, it might encourage more WFH.

 

[Magdalen Road]

I would imagine that train travel from the more 'well-heeled' areas has reduced more than elsewhere- those folk get to choose where and when to work.

Not necessarily, it depends on what the job is. Having a well paid / higher income doesn't always mean a choice of workplace or time.

Unlikely, as the cost of commuting is usually more than the extra cost of utilities from WFH. If anything, it might encourage more WFH.

My season ticket is still x 3 the predicted utility bill even based on today's implemented capped rate.
I can't work from home or closer to home unfortunately.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not necessarily, it depends on what the job is. Having a well paid / higher income doesn't always mean a choice of workplace or time.

indeed. At my place of work almost all the higher earners are back in the office full time, it’s the middle earners working from home. Although I suspect that, as is usually the case, the rail industry is different in that respect!

 

[Peregrine 4903]

indeed. At my place of work almost all the higher earners are back in the office full time, it’s the middle earners working from home. Although I suspect that, as is usually the case, the rail industry is different in that respect!

That's so true, highest and lowest earners are the ones in the office full time, with the middle earners being the ones who work from home the most.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's so true, highest and lowest earners are the ones in the office full time, with the middle earners being the ones who work from home the most.

Hope to see you in the office soon young man. (I did see you walking past the other day )

 

[43066]

indeed. At my place of work almost all the higher earners are rback in the office full time, it’s the middle earners working from home. Although I suspect that, as is usually the case, the rail industry is different in that respect!

From experience in my pre railway law/prof. services life, many of London’s truly “high earners” do project based roles, conferring a fair bit of autonomy and enabling them to largely set their own diaries. Commuting (or not) won’t be an issue, that’s not to say they don’t work hard.

Ironically the people I still know in that category are rather less chippy about the earnings of others than many on here! They’re not always the types you’d expect, either.

Hope to see you in the office soon young man. (I did see you walking past the other day )

Have you got him on tea making duty yet? .

 

[Horizon22]

I suspect that the days of people spending vast amounts of money on first class open returns to attend meetings in London are over when it can all be done over "Zoom" or even with the use of teleconference facilities. They were beginning to be used when I left the world of work in 2017 - the pandemic has no doubt accelerated their use to the detriment of the railway.

I think this was a trend that was happening anyway, its just been vastly accelerated by Covid as you say. Probably would have happened over 10 years as opposed to a year.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Hope to see you in the office soon young man. (I did see you walking past the other day )

You too! I did also see you a few weeks ago but you were busy talking to someone, otherwise I would have come and said hello.

 

[43066]

I think this was a trend that was happening anyway, its just been vastly accelerated by Covid as you say. Probably would have happened over 10 years as opposed to a year.

It absolutely was.

That said, anyone who has ever done a job where meetings really matter,
whether it’s to influence, to sell, to build relationships, knows that in person meetings are vital.

Fundamentally, we are a social species.

 

[Horizon22]

I would imagine that train travel from the more 'well-heeled' areas has reduced more than elsewhere- those folk get to choose where and when to work.

This has certainly be true and was something I thinke easily predicted. Those in "stockbroker belt" locations and of outer commuter locations in the Home Counties in white collar work continue to be able to WfH, although for many a minimal hybrid approach (1 day a week in the office) is ideal as I think people do miss some of that interaction and being out and about.

Conversely, this is what has somewhat driven leisure demand to +100% on the weekend; being at home all the time (even in a large house) can see cabin fever set in and more people wish to travel by train when they no longer have to travel by train as they used to do at 6am, for 2+ hours each day in cramped conditions for £000s a year.

For me, it is odd there really hasn't been much movement to have "peak advances" or similar, because - whilst peak trains are busier than they were - in certain locations & routes, it might improve yields.

 

[Bald Rick]

Have you got him on tea making duty yet? .

You too! I did also see you a few weeks ago but you were busy talking to someone, otherwise I would have come and said hello.

Yes, busy making tea for the guv’nor

 

[dk1]

It absolutely was.

That said, anyone who has ever done a job where meetings really matter,
whether it’s to influence, to sell, to build relationships, knows that in person meetings are vital.

Fundamentally, we are a social species.

That comes back again & again. Face to face cannot be beaten. Add to that the pleasure of meals & hospitality & you’re on a winner. Teams/Zoom have their place but that’s about it.

 

[E27007]

Every TOC I have ever worked with, without exception, has had an issue with December leave. Also a problem in getting people to cover the gaps, of course, which is less of an issue at other times of year.

My TOC had the perennial issue with a log jam of leave to be taken at the end of the year, it was down to management, not the men. The men would apply for leave through the calender, but management would reject 50% of leave requests , applying a clause in our T&Cs about holiday leave is subject to the "needs of the business" the result of kicking the can down the road..... November and December became management crisis time, the men whose leave had been rejected had a cast iron case for taking their leave entitlement.

How many know of the EU legislation by which management have the right to withdraw leave which has been granted?
working Times 1998 Regulation 15. There are defined rules for the notice to be given, two weeks out for two weeks of annual leave, one week out for one week of annual leave

 

[PGAT]

That comes back again & again. Face to face cannot be beaten. Add to that the pleasure of meals & hospitality & you’re on a winner. Teams/Zoom have their place but that’s about it.

If I was running a business, I wouldn't want to use a system that could be shut down easily by someone's wifi "just being bad", or people drinking alcohol whilst lying on the sofa.

 

[Bald Rick]

My TOC had the perennial issue with a log jam of leave to be taken at the end of the year, it was down to management, not the men. The men would apply for leave through the calender, but management would reject 50% of leave requests , applying a clause in our T&Cs about holiday leave is subject to the "needs of the business" the result of kicking the can down the road..... November and December became management crisis time, the men whose leave had been rejected had a cast iron case for taking their leave entitlement.

How many know of the EU legislation by which management have the right to withdraw leave which has been granted? There are defined rules for the notice to be given, two weeks out for two weeks of annual leave, one week out for one week of annual leave

you really don’t like the EU do you!

 

[43066]

Yes, busy making tea for the guv’nor

Absolutely. Just the way it should be. When I used to go to work to dispense expensive legal advice in EC1 I had a secretary to take down the letters I used to dictate and make me tea. Nowadays I turn up to drive trains, and I have a guard to make me tea.

Industries and job titles change, but the fundamentals stay the same .

That comes back again & again. Face to face cannot be beaten. Add to that the pleasure of meals & hospitality & you’re on a winner. Teams/Zoom have their place but that’s about it.

Indeed.

you really don’t like the EU do you!

I don’t like the EU either, but I will go into bat for the remain camp and call out nonsense when I see it:

How many know of the EU legislation by which management have the right to withdraw leave which has been granted? There are defined rules for the notice to be given, two weeks out for two weeks of annual leave, one week out for one week of annual leave

Specifically which “EU legislation” are you thinking of and can you cite it, please?

 

[dk1]

If I was running a business, I wouldn't want to use a system that could be shut down easily by someone's wifi "just being bad", or people drinking alcohol whilst lying on the sofa.

In their pants.

 

[route101]

With the cost of living crisis I doubt many would want to work from home anymore.

In my case I would rather WFH to save on petrol!

 

[PGAT]

In my case I would rather WFH to save on petrol!

In my case heating + energy + everything else would add up to far more than I use on my oyster card.

 

[route101]

In my case heating + energy + everything else would add up to far more than I use on my oyster card.

Yes, this will be different for everyone.

This has certainly be true and was something I thinke easily predicted. Those in "stockbroker belt" locations and of outer commuter locations in the Home Counties in white collar work continue to be able to WfH, although for many a minimal hybrid approach (1 day a week in the office) is ideal as I think people do miss some of that interaction and being out and about.

Conversely, this is what has somewhat driven leisure demand to +100% on the weekend; being at home all the time (even in a large house) can see cabin fever set in and more people wish to travel by train when they no longer have to travel by train as they used to do at 6am, for 2+ hours each day in cramped conditions for £000s a year.

For me, it is odd there really hasn't been much movement to have "peak advances" or similar, because - whilst peak trains are busier than they were - in certain locations & routes, it might improve yields.

I was doing 1 day a week in the office which was about the right balance. Added to that would be other site visits, training and odd coffee shop meeting.

 

[E27007]

Specifically which “EU legislation” are you thinking of and can you cite it, please?

Working Time Regulation 1998 Regulation 15 copied and pasted as below, also confirmed by 1) The RMT legal team, 2) A citizens Advice Bureau. The employer may cancel your A/L provided notice is given

"
(2) A worker’s employer may require the worker—

(a)to take leave to which the worker is entitled under regulation 13(1); or

(b)not to take such leave,

on particular days, by giving notice to the worker in accordance with paragraph (3).

(3) A notice under paragraph (1) or (2)—

(a)may relate to all or part of the leave to which a worker is entitled in a leave year;

(b)shall specify the days on which leave is or (as the case may be) is not to be taken and, where the leave on a particular day is to be in respect of only part of the day, its duration; and

(c)shall be given to the employer or, as the case may be, the worker before the relevant date.
"

 

[Bikeman78]

So a long way to go before we reach the giddy heights of pre-Covid travel.

Is that something to aspire to though? I've never commuted by train but I've travelled on many peak trains on various routes. It wasn't a great experience. Sadly, for those that still commute, the DfT/Treasury want to recreate that experience albeit with fewer or shorter trains.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Working Time Regulation 1998 Regulation 15 copied and pasted as below, also confirmed by 1) The RMT legal team, 2) A citizens Advice Bureau. The employer may cancel your A/L provided notice is given

"
(2) A worker’s employer may require the worker—

(a)to take leave to which the worker is entitled under regulation 13(1); or

(b)not to take such leave,

on particular days, by giving notice to the worker in accordance with paragraph (3).

(3) A notice under paragraph (1) or (2)—

(a)may relate to all or part of the leave to which a worker is entitled in a leave year;

(b)shall specify the days on which leave is or (as the case may be) is not to be taken and, where the leave on a particular day is to be in respect of only part of the day, its duration; and

(c)shall be given to the employer or, as the case may be, the worker before the relevant date.
"

Question I have is. What is the alternative (UK) legislation on the subject ?.

I mean perhaps this EU legislation fills a vacuum so although it looks as though its a bit anti holiday it would be better than an employer thinking they could give no notice.

Anyway, in my case, if my employer insisted on me cancelling my three week trip that had been planned almost a year ahead, I would apologise politely and still go on holiday. Then maybe start looking into a new job when I got back.

Is that something to aspire to though? I've never commuted by train but I've travelled on many peak trains on various routes. It wasn't a great experience. Sadly, for those that still commute, the DfT/Treasury want to recreate that experience albeit with fewer or shorter trains.

Yes, lets be honest, there are not many people who like paying for the ordeal that is commuting. So there is always going to be a pressure to get out of commuting as much as possible. Back in 1997 I changed jobs meaning a modest pay cut and a 17 minute walk to work (near the station I had previously used). I then used to come home and think wow, what am I going to do with all this spare time (answer garden). Before that it was eat, chill, shower, bed.

But I do think WFH (Working From Home) has disadvantages and will wane a bit.
First to return will be those people who found WFH intolerable straight away (I have spoken to a few of those).
Second there will be those where the benefits have worn off (a slow realisation that the house is not big enough etc).
Third those who do not know how to stop working and are grinding themselves into the ground (I know one of them). Those people need to be able to physically transition from work to home.
Fourth those where pressures are building up between inhabitants of the home (I even know of one relationship that was finished off by being stuck at home together).

There will also be pros and cons for employers. Saves on Heating Lighting and Ventilation but will result in less effectiveness.

At least with office politics you get to leave it behind as you physically went home.

Would be interesting to do a poll of people who have retired before Covid. How many of them got bored and fed up with being stuck at home all day.

Overall I would say one cannot un-invent working from home on the scale that Covid triggered. So we will never get back to the levels of commuting we say just before Covid. Only way will be through population growth - but there are too many of us already.

 

[E27007]

Is that something to aspire to though? I've never commuted by train but I've travelled on many peak trains on various routes. It wasn't a great experience. Sadly, for those that still commute, the DfT/Treasury want to recreate that experience albeit with fewer or shorter trains.

No it not something to aspire to, I was a commuter, hated it, two hours a day wasted 5 days a week., and the cost of the season ticket. I was lucky to afford a house near to my work in London Eastcheap EC3, I could walk (30 minutes) or cycle (10 minutes), both free of cost , quick and reliable, I saved £25 a week in fares which paid for my hobby, an RG500 motorcycle

 

[yorksrob]

I've said this before, but I think there's an optimum commute of about half an hour or so, which, if not too overcrowded, helps to separate home and work life. Any more than that and the pull of living somewhere really nice has to be greater to overcome the commute (i.e a longer commute might be worth it for living somewhere like Brighton or the countryside, but probably not a suburb).

 

[eMeS]

I'm not from the railway industry, but from an avionics manufacturer and I would occasionally work from home when reports had to be written. My commute was from Harpenden and around 40 minutes (on a good day) to outer London, and negotiating St Albans. When we moved closer, even my kids mentioned that I was better tempered on getting home.
The company moved to Milton Keynes in 1980, and if I wanted, I could walk to work - but having the car at work for the lunchtime shop was just too convenient! (I retired in 2000, and that seems like a different world now!)

 

[Peter Sarf]

No it not something to aspire to, I was a commuter, hated it, two hours a day wasted 5 days a week., and the cost of the season ticket. I was lucky to afford a house near to my work in London Eastcheap EC3, I could walk (30 minutes) or cycle (10 minutes), both free of cost , quick and reliable, I saved £25 a week in fares which paid for my hobby, an RG500 motorcycle

I agree. Its not just the time and overcrowding but the amount of delays and lost connections. I hated it. For me allowing 90 minutes each way AFTER moving nearer to London (Croydon) was looking back a waste of my life. If I was delayed into Victoria then the Victoria line was shut due to overcrowding. Still happens over 30 years later.

All in all most commuters must logically be trying their hardest NOT to commute. So a recovery in commuting figures is an un-realistic dream of the railways. I think most will never want to see it achieved. I actually did not wish to think of it that way but the railways need to adapt to that.

I've said this before, but I think there's an optimum commute of about half an hour or so, which, if not too overcrowded, helps to separate home and work life. Any more than that and the pull of living somewhere really nice has to be greater to overcome the commute (i.e a longer commute might be worth it for living somewhere like Brighton or the countryside, but probably not a suburb).

They say any town within 60 minutes by train to a London terminus becomes a magnet for commuters. Can you imagine what the Elizabeth line has done to house prices in the Thames valley !. No more changing onto the tube at Paddington for the West End, City or Docklands. I always valued a slower journey with less changes (less risk) but this will also be quicker !.

The half hour you refer to would be just right for a walk. Yes it is enough to unwind from work.

 

[Trainbike46]

I agree. Its not just the time and overcrowding but the amount of delays and lost connections. I hated it. For me allowing 90 minutes each way AFTER moving nearer to London (Croydon) was looking back a waste of my life. If I was delayed into Victoria then the Victoria line was shut due to overcrowding. Still happens over 30 years later.

All in all most commuters must logically be trying their hardest NOT to commute. So a recovery in commuting figures is an un-realistic dream of the railways. I think most will never want to see it achieved. I actually did not wish to think of it that way but the railways need to adapt to that.

They say any town within 60 minutes by train to a London terminus becomes a magnet for commuters. Can you imagine what the Elizabeth line has done to house prices in the Thames valley !. No more changing onto the tube at Paddington for the West End, City or Docklands. I always valued a slower journey with less changes (less risk) but this will also be quicker !.

The half hour you refer to would be just right for a walk. Yes it is enough to unwind from work.

I think the aim shouldn't be to get the former railway commuters who now work from home back, but instead try to attract people who previously used to drive or fly. That way we could get revenue up, hopefully spread more equally through the day, so there's less need for peak extras.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree. Its not just the time and overcrowding but the amount of delays and lost connections. I hated it. For me allowing 90 minutes each way AFTER moving nearer to London (Croydon) was looking back a waste of my life. If I was delayed into Victoria then the Victoria line was shut due to overcrowding. Still happens over 30 years later.

All in all most commuters must logically be trying their hardest NOT to commute. So a recovery in commuting figures is an un-realistic dream of the railways. I think most will never want to see it achieved. I actually did not wish to think of it that way but the railways need to adapt to that.

They say any town within 60 minutes by train to a London terminus becomes a magnet for commuters. Can you imagine what the Elizabeth line has done to house prices in the Thames valley !. No more changing onto the tube at Paddington for the West End, City or Docklands. I always valued a slower journey with less changes (less risk) but this will also be quicker !.

The half hour you refer to would be just right for a walk. Yes it is enough to unwind from work.

I walk half an hour each way as well (to get to the station/work.

 

[Magdalen Road]

I loathe commuting and the current issues extending it by 30 minutes each way certainly aren't helping!
I've no idea why Great Northern are running a xx09 Cambridge to King's Cross instead of xx45 to coincide with the arrival of the xx44 (depart) Kings Lynn.
There's a distinct air of resignation, bewilderment and malaise among my fellow commuters waiting at platform in the early hours.
If I had a choice then I wouldn't be doing it. I've had plenty of time recently to contemplate alternatives and finances around it.