Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[Bromley boy]

The only insults I can see in there are yours.
And it's not constructive.

I’ve not insulted anyone, nor have I called for anyone to lose their jobs or baselessly questioned their competence in their job!

I suggest you read what I’ve written in conjunction with the previous post.

 

[Mikey C]

All that the passengers evacuating managed to achieve was stranding themselves at Lewisham station with no prospect of trains running for some protracted period of time .

The passengers on the 376 were on an inner London commuter train. Once off the train at Lewisham they would have gone home by bus. Or walked or got a lift/taxi etc.

We're not talking about people stranded in the middle of nowhere, 50 miles from home, with roads blocked by massive snowdrifts

 

[theironroad]

The only insults I can see in there are yours.
And it's not constructive.

Maybe you agree with all that 'skymonster' said, but his/her post will be seen by rail staff as an absolute insult to staff who do their best individually to run a railway 2/7/365 . Many staff empathise considerably even with the hardest to deal with passengers and many staff on platforms and guards take levels of verbal and physical abuse that would be deemed totally unacceptable in many other walks of life.

 

[Mikey C]

Well I can assure you it most definitely was the (quite sensible) message. I took the below screenshot at 1536 on Friday to send to a friend who was working in London and intending to commute home from Victoria.

View attachment 43497

Some of the people may have got on before that tweet was sent

And it specifically mentions EAST Kent. Anyone living in SE London would have assumed that they would still be able to get home.

 

[EM2]

And it specifically mentions EAST Kent. Anyone living in SE London would have assumed that they would still be able to get home.

'There is currently severe disruption across the entire network. Please DO NOT TRAVEL at the moment'
Only after that is East Kent mentioned.

 

[N/100]

Well I can assure you it most definitely was the (quite sensible) message. I took the below screenshot at 1536 on Friday to send to a friend who was working in London and intending to commute home from Victoria.

View attachment 43497

Thanks, that is interesting, and I agree it supports what you say. However...

I didn't take a screenshot of my information but I can assure you I didn't invent it. I was looking about 10-11 in the morning, when there was no information not to travel. The advice to travel sooner rather than later would have been at a similar time to your screenshot.

 

[Llanigraham]

The post Llanigraham is referring to is written in the most insulting way possible. Extremely poor form considering a number of railstaff have come onto this forum to discuss things constructively. They have certainly not come on here to be insulted.

Thank you.
Is it any wonder that so few professional railworkers now bother coming on this forum due to the type of comments such as I quoted? Even when polite and accurate explanations are given we are ridiculed, insulted, not believed and sometimes even accused of lying.

 

[Bromley boy]

Thanks, that is interesting, and I agree it supports what you say. However...

I didn't take a screenshot of my information but I can assure you I didn't invent it. I was looking about 10-11 in the morning, when there was no information not to travel. The advice to travel sooner rather than later would have been at a similar time to your screenshot.

Travel sooner rather than later was the initial advice (as was the case all week) but things got progressively worse throughout the day, even before the events at Lewisham kicked off.

The overriding point is that no one was left in any doubt that there was severe disruption to the network and people were told should avoid travelling (“please DO NOT TRAVEL” is unequivocal), and complete journeys as early as possible.

I really don’t really see how SE can be criticised for putting out this advice, or what it is people think they should have said instead.

 

[Llanigraham]

All this talk about permissive working ignores a few facts which ruled that out as an option.

For the first half hour or so all trains were stuck with power on, with the possible exception of the one trying to exit Lewisham and head to Blackheath, which was stuck because it couldn’t draw power. Whether it had enough power for heating, lighting and PA is not clear.

NR arrived on scene and switched off the power for that line only to enable them to clear the ice from the conductor rail. At this point the train behind would not have been able to move forward to assist. The expectation was that within 20 minutes the ice would be clear and all trains would be on the move again.
Unfortunately before the hour was up, someone detained themselves. It is not clear which train this was, but once there was a passenger loose on the tracks, the power had to be cut to all lines through Lewisham.

This caused the delay to be extended, whilst the train in question was resecured and the passenger confirmed to be safe. It also meant the passengers remaining in that train were now getting very cold as the doors were open and heating off.

This extended delay led to more passengers detraining, further extending the delay.

SE Twitter were getting quite desperate, pleading with passengers to stay on trains. Each tine they were ready to resume power, someone else jumped off, resetting the situation. This spread to more trains in the queue, causing the area affected to extend, leaving more trains in the dark.

The total delay would probably have been up to an hour had it not been passengers detraining. Instead the trains at the back of the queue were heading towards a four hour delay by the time everything was moving again.

I imagine it was a really tricky situation to manage. They were probably 20minutes away from getting everyone moving for about three hours.

Quite, but this is what "joe public" on here fails are even refuses to accept.
They caused this delay to be extended by their stupidity in de-training.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Some while back I asked about conductor rail heating. After the bad snow in London around 2010 this was supposedly installed at many station platforms and for a short distance beyond platforms to allow trains to 'get away' and hopefully then be able to coast through any locally iced areas beyond there. I certainly saw some installations.

Can I ask again whether conductor rail heating was installed at Lewisham; if so, was it working; and if not, why not?

I would also hope that the availability and effectiveness of conductor rail heating is a major focus of the enquiry.

As a former Southern Region operations manager (who has done the '12-hours in the snow dealing with frozen points' thing) I offer my heartfelt sympathy to the staff involved and express my respect to many rail staff who have made it possible for me to make at least some local journeys in recent days.

 

[swj99]

I’ve not insulted anyone, nor have I called for anyone to lose their jobs or baselessly questioned their competence in their job!

I suggest you read what I’ve written in conjunction with the previous post.

I've read them both, numerous times.

If some of the posters on here spent as much time trying to think of constructive ideas to prevent this type of crisis from happening, instead of insulting people on the internet, wouldn’t the railway be a safer and more welcoming place ?

 

[Bromley boy]

I've read them both, numerous times.

If some of the posters on here spent as much time trying to think of constructive ideas to prevent this type of crisis from happening, instead of insulting people on the internet, wouldn’t the railway be a safer and more welcoming place ?

Wouldn’t it just!

And maybe you should read your own avatar .

 

[ComUtoR]

If some of the posters on here spent as much time trying to think of constructive ideas to prevent this type of crisis from happening

Quite simply, don't egress onto the track.

 

[The Box Photter]

Travel sooner rather than later was the initial advice (as was the case all week) but things got progressively worse throughout the day, even before the events at Lewisham kicked off.

The overriding point is that no one was left in any doubt that there was severe disruption to the network and people were told should avoid travelling (“please DO NOT TRAVEL” is unequivocal), and complete journeys as early as possible.

I really don’t really see how SE can be criticised for putting out this advice, or what it is people think they should have said instead.

So, the TOC was saying "don't travel" but was still running trains. What did they expect that passengers would do? Of course they'll get on any train that was likely to get them home or near to home. As usual, the TOC was giving inconsistent information by saying "don't travel" yet offering customers a level of service. If they were really that serious, they should have stopped ALL the trains and locked up ALL the stations. Thay way no potential trespassers would have had the affrontery to pay for a ticket and stand on one of their trains.

 

[Robertj21a]

Quite simply, don't egress onto the track.

For how long ? - 4 hours, 12 hours ?
With no information given out ?

You really must be joking - I hope.

 

[Bromley boy]

So, the TOC was saying "don't travel" but was still running trains. What did they expect that passengers would do? Of course they'll get on any train that was likely to get them home or near to home. As usual, the TOC was giving inconsistent information by saying "don't travel" yet offering customers a level of service. If they were really that serious, they should have stopped ALL the trains and locked up ALL the stations. Thay way no potential trespassers would have had the affrontery to pay for a ticket and stand on one of their trains.

So imagine you're SE. You're runnning a service in badly degraded conditions. You already have a reduced timetable in operation and advisories out to complete travel as early as possible. Conditions rapidly deteriorate during the day after the morning rush hour after you've transported tens of thousands of people into work who want to get home.

What information would you have put out, other than to advise people not to travel where possible. Keep in mind that freezing rain was forecast over all of the south east and you have no way of knowing where it will hit, how severely, or even if it will materialise at all.

Or are you saying TOCs should suspend all services immediately if freezing rain or other adverse weather conditions are forecast?

 

[Tio Terry]

Quite simply, don't egress onto the track.

Sorry but that is never going to be the case and the industry needs to recognise that. Nobody is going to remain trapped on a train for hours when they are within spitting distance of a platform. Remember, all school children are lectured on the dangers of the third rail and how to identify it - higher than the running rails - so know how to avoid it and the danger it holds. But in this case, from what I have read on here, it was obvious that the traction power was isolated because there was no heating and limited lighting. I can fully understand why somebody decided to decamp and take the risk to walk to the close platform, and, of course, one leads to many.

What needs to be answered is why the train could not be allowed to move in to the platform under caution, that's what would have happened in BR day's. The risk is absolutely minimal and it would have avoided the trackside decampment. Probably a result of our disjointed railway system.

Another thing, there are comments on here about station staff not being PTS trained so could not go track side. If the traction supply is off and there are no trains moving, why do you need PTS to go trackside? Surely there could be a reduced training requirement to allow station staff to go trackside in an emergency to help evacuate a train?

 

[muz379]

But in this case, from what I have read on here, it was obvious that the traction power was isolated because there was no heating and limited lighting

That is not an obvious sign that traction power has been isolated , it could be a fault with that individual train or could be localised icing around the shoe/s of that individual train

Even if that massive assumption is correct you also dont know if traction power is isolated on adjacent running lines or indeed if trains are going to be moving on adjacant running lines .

 

[Llanigraham]

For how long ? - 4 hours, 12 hours ?
With no information given out ?

You really must be joking - I hope.

For as long as it takes for them to sort the problem out OR to arrange and organise a safe method of withdrawl.
But then I know the Rules and am willing to abide by them.

 

[6Gman]

But in this case, from what I have read on here, it was obvious that the traction power was isolated because there was no heating and limited lighting.

That seems a rash (and dangerous) assumption to make. There are surely other reasons why heating and lighting could be impaired?

 

[telstarbox]

Just on the "do not travel" point:

It snowed in London at some point on every day from Monday to Friday. Southeastern still managed to run some sort of service on the Metro lines (albeit reduced timetable / with delays ) on each of these days, so a lot of people still got into work and back home on the trains from Monday to Thursday. By the Friday it would have been reasonable to assume that the same would still apply.

 

[Tio Terry]

That is not an obvious sign that traction power has been isolated , it could be a fault with that individual train or could be localised icing around the shoe/s of that individual train

Even if that massive assumption is correct you also dont know if traction power is isolated on adjacent running lines or indeed if trains are going to be moving on adjacant running lines .

True.

But then the driver would know and the TOC employees would as well. If the power is off then there should be an immediate plan for evacuation. But remember, most people in third rail land know how to identify the third rail and how to avoid it.

 

[ComUtoR]

Remember, all school children are lectured on the dangers of the third rail and how to identify it - higher than the running rails - so know how to avoid it and the danger it holds.

I have two anklebiters. Neither has had any lecture on the dangers of the third rail. Your thinking of a totally different era.

 

[Bromley boy]

But remember, most people in third rail land know how to identify the third rail and how to avoid it.

What on earth do you base that on?

Lots of passengers don’t even realise the trains run on electricity! Let alone knowing what a third rail is, or how to identify it.

 

[muz379]

If the power is off then there should be an immediate plan for evacuation

There was an immediate plan in place for getting trains running again , no evacuation plan was necessary . Unfortunately once people decided to evacuate they then changed the priority from getting stuff moving again to containing the uncontrolled evacuation

But remember, most people in third rail land know how to identify the third rail and how to avoid it.

In the dark on a multi line railway with snow . Also given the proximity to stations third rail possibly on the opposite side to what is expected ?

Even if this assumption was correct , which you simply cannot know . Does that mean that local people can self evacuate but non locals must stay on board ?

 

[Chrisgr31]

Is it possible that one reason for not moving the second train forward was that the first train was stuck uphill not far ahead. I have been on a train stuck on leaves that has actually slide backwards. Could this have been a risk here? that the first train could have slide back, or even reversed back to have a second go?

 

[Llanigraham]

True.

But then the driver would know and the TOC employees would as well. If the power is off then there should be an immediate plan for evacuation. But remember, most people in third rail land know how to identify the third rail and how to avoid it.

No, the immediate action is to identify the fault and plan to rectify it. And 99% of the time evacuation does not need to be considered.

 

[robbeech]

Is it possible that one reason for not moving the second train forward was that the first train was stuck uphill not far ahead. I have been on a train stuck on leaves that has actually slide backwards. Could this have been a risk here? that the first train could have slide back, or even reversed back to have a second go?

20.6 wouldn’t have been executed without communication with both trains so any reversing and having another go wouldn’t have been permitted if the rear train had been allowed to proceed.
Am I right in thinking it’s downhill into the station? This increases the risk I guess as the train could slide forwards further if it is.
I also assume with no power the units can not get a brake release thus once current was removed it’s not possible to coast downhill.

 

[Antman]

That seems a rash (and dangerous) assumption to make. There are surely other reasons why heating and lighting could be impaired?

Perhaps but Southeastern were saying on twitter that the power had been turned off, presumably passengers got out on the opposite side to the third rail?

 

[SF-02]

Whatever people say, in future people will get off in similar circumstances.

As TOCs seem incapable of realising how people behave and adjusting to that then give SE Metro and inner London stations to TfL. They would have run more than 2 trains an hour in peaks which allowed ice to form and also severe crowding on the few trains running which was a factor in decamping. They also have station staff trained to deal with this scenario. And they have communciations on trains that are FAR better.

TOCs fail again and again and SE do it more than most. TfL ain't perfect but bloody hell it was night and day last week as a tube and rail passenger.