Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[swj99]

.....
And maybe you should read your own avatar .

I already have. What about you ?

 

[sefton]

So let's look back to the Woking de-training in 2011, when customers said they were getting announcements from the driver every five to fifteen minutes, and they still decide to prise open the doors and get out.

Even if you are getting frequent announcements after four hours it is blindingly obvious to anyone there will be no immediate resolution.

How do they *know*? Just because something has happened in the past, it doesn't mean it will again.

Failure to learn from mistakes is a very dangerous game to play.

 

[N/100]

Travel sooner rather than later was the initial advice (as was the case all week) but things got progressively worse throughout the day, even before the events at Lewisham kicked off.

The overriding point is that no one was left in any doubt that there was severe disruption to the network and people were told should avoid travelling (“please DO NOT TRAVEL” is unequivocal), and complete journeys as early as possible.

I really don’t really see how SE can be criticised for putting out this advice, or what it is people think they should have said instead.

Well clearly not no one, because I didn't find the message in your screenshot and found conflicting information in the afternoon. In the end I didn't travel, but that decision was not because of the quality of information I could find on SE trains.

The sooner rather than later message was in the route by route summary so real time information not something that had been up all week.

Sorry but you will not succeed in proving that the people stuck on trains were at fault for being there.

 

[amcluesent]

It's a open question whether all pax in these trains would be able to understand English, both the signage and the drivers announcements. There must be a case for automatic announcements to be recorded in 5 or 6 of the most widely spoken languages of Londoners.

 

[NSEFAN]

What on earth do you base that on?

Lots of passengers don’t even realise the trains run on electricity! Let alone knowing what a third rail is, or how to identify it.

This is quite an important point which I think that some posters here are missing. Obviously the staff are aware and us on here are aware of the dangers on the railway (to the point where most of us could probably detrain ourselves without accident or injury), but most passengers simply have no perception of the risks. Especially given they could see the station from the train, what little understanding of risk they already have is diminished by their desire to get off the train and get home. As others have said, whilst it was illegal for them to do what they did, it was completely human. Those with the power to authorise permissive working, detraining etc. need to understand that they're not just managing trains, they're managing passengers too.

 

[Antman]

Whatever people say, in future people will get off in similar circumstances.

As TOCs seem incapable of realising how people behave and adjusting to that then give SE Metro and inner London stations to TfL. They would have run more than 2 trains an hour in peaks which allowed ice to form and also severe crowding on the few trains running which was a factor in decamping. They also have station staff trained to deal with this scenario. And they have communciations on trains that are FAR better.

TOCs fail again and again and SE do it more than most. TfL ain't perfect but bloody hell it was night and day last week as a tube and rail passenger.

I'm not sure things would have been different if TfL were running it, would authority for the train to proceed into the platform have been anymore forthcoming?

 

[Antman]

It's a open question whether all pax in these trains would be able to understand English, both the signage and the drivers announcements. There must be a case for automatic announcements to be recorded in 5 or 6 of the most widely spoken languages of Londoners.

Heaven forbid, do we really need anymore repetitive announcements?

 

[Kettledrum]

I wonder if Mr Grayling will use this as another argument for bi modes. At least then, you could have got the trains to a place of safety - ie a station.

 

[Bromley boy]

I didn't find the message in your screenshot and found conflicting information in the afternoon. In the end I didn't travel, but that decision was not because of the quality of information I could find on SE trains.

That information (a service update) was prominently on the home page of the SE website. If you were unable to find that I don’t know else to say to you.

Sorry but you will not succeed in proving that the people stuck on trains were at fault for being there.

But I’ve never said it was their fault for being there, or anything or the sort.

The original point I was responding to (pages ago now) was that SE had done “nothing”. I’ve pointed out that they advised people not to travel, and kept running what services they could.

I’m genuinely at a loss as to what the armchair generals posting on here think they could have done differently.

 

[Raul_Duke]

The lack of empathy and humility staff across the network seem to have shown paying customers in this case is simply staggering. This incident just fills me with utter contempt for those who work on the railway and yet defend what happened. Despite being a privatised industry, this incident merely seems to reinforce the idea that the railways still behaves like a nationalised industry, in which employees seem to think they can still get away with not doing what's right 'because it's more than my job's worth' or because the rulebook doesn't permit it. When the proverbial brown stuff hits the fan, people should be doing what is necessary to make things right not replying on those crutches.

It boils down to two things. Communication with your customers, and using your initiative. Neither seem to have happened. We have an industry waylaid by a rule book that stifles staff from doing what's right for passengers. It wouldn't happen in true private industry, because if it did then ultimately the business would start to collapse. But of course those in the railway can go home at the end of the day with warm fuzzy feelings because they know come what may and however their industry treats passengers, the railway will still be here tomorrow.

Some of the more rediculous things suggested that happe on this topic, that a true customer-focused business would not countenance include:

• Train drivers not using the PA - crazy, they're customers not self-loading cargo. Keep them informed. PA broken - train driver needs to get off their ass and go back to the coaches to tell passengers what's happening. Set mandatory intervals for drivers talking to customers, and if they won't do it fire them.
• Control not talking to train crews. What's GSMR for? We solved the problem of 'control' talking to aircraft anywhere in the world in the airline industry 20 years ago. Why is it so difficult for railways over a few miles? If they won't talk, find replacement employees who will.
• Signallers not knowing how to use GSMR general broadcast. Teach them. And if they can't master it, fire them or move them to a job they can manage.
• DO NOT TRAVEL - simply preposterous at any time of day other than first thing because some people will already have started their journey or already be at work. They have no choice but to travel.
• Station staff lacking PTS. Train them - don't care if it costs, because it's worth it to avoid these sorts of problems (or it would be if the railway was a business that could fail with enough adverse publicity). Do it after normal working hours if needs be. Make it a condition of new station staff contracts, and if they can't meet the medical requirements don't hire them.
• Accusing customers of trespassing if they detrain. Appaling. So I pay you to use your services, you fail to deliver, and then you try to persecute me for walking away from your business. Madness. If you'd have sorted the problem before your customers got edgy, or at least kept them fully informed, the problem probably wouldn't have arisen.

It really saddens me that the railways still seem to be run for the convenience / in the interests of the industry and the staff, rather than the customers who effectively pay the wages of those who work within it. Until this attitude changes, there will be little improvement. This incident - and the reaction of railway staff responding to this topic - seems to point to the idea that the railway still behaves like it is always right, and the customer is always wrong. It's about time it started finding reasons to do the right thing for customers, rather than hide behind excuses.

I gather you work in the airline industry? So based on what I’ve just read, if something went wrong at an airport or an aircraft had a technical issue (which of course NEVER happens.......) and passengers were waiting on aircraft on the ground, you would presumably be ok with them popping the doors and using the slides to run around taxiways and runways to get out?

 

[John Bray]

The aircraft analogy is poor. While the aircraft has power, everyone has a seat, light and air-conditioning, there are visible attendants to talk to, and no realistic prospect to get your destination any other way. The doors are guarded by the cabin crew too. If an aircraft loses climate control or toilets fail, I expect an evacuation becomes mandatory. Evacuation can also be done very safely for all levels of passenger mobility

 

[al78]

The aircraft analogy is poor. While the aircraft has power, everyone has a seat, light and air-conditioning, there are visible attendants to talk to, and no realistic prospect to get your destination any other way. The doors are guarded by the cabin crew too. If an aircraft loses climate control or toilets fail, I expect an evacuation becomes mandatory. Evacuation can also be done very safely for all levels of passenger mobility

I would have thought if it became apparent an aircraft wasn't going anywhere for a long time, airport staff would allow people to go back into the terminal, providing the safe means to do so, not leave them on the aircraft for hour after hour after hour. The staffing at airports is vastly superior to the rail network.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a open question whether all pax in these trains would be able to understand English, both the signage and the drivers announcements. There must be a case for automatic announcements to be recorded in 5 or 6 of the most widely spoken languages of Londoners.

Can you *imagine* how tedious that would be? 3 languages in Switzerland drones on long enough.

We could try this one: if you're going to live in England, learn basic English. (France...French, Germany...German, Arab country...Arabic etc).

My Polish friend agrees, by the way, and has put the effort into learning English.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would have thought if it became apparent an aircraft wasn't going anywhere for a long time, airport staff would allow people to go back into the terminal, providing the safe means to do so, not leave them on the aircraft for hour after hour after hour. The staffing at airports is vastly superior to the rail network.

People have sat on planes for hours on end, the key difference is that (like a DMU) they are self powered so loss of lights, heating, toilets etc is rather less likely. They tend to be rather less enthusiastic to unload as if they do they have to do a load of paperwork to reload. But then if a train is at a station (same as if a plane is at a terminal) you will tend to be allowed off, anyway, the issue is trains not at stations.

And that may lead us to a partial solution - if a train reports a problem, get the ones behind it stopped at platforms, not in the middle of nowhere, then release the doors.

 

[Railops]

It's a open question whether all pax in these trains would be able to understand English, both the signage and the drivers announcements. There must be a case for automatic announcements to be recorded in 5 or 6 of the most widely spoken languages of Londoners.

Yes brilliant idea but why stop at 5 or 6, why not 20 or 30 because one thing is certain once you go down that route it will never be enough.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd say there are few people in Britain who don't understand at least basic English, and those that don't tend to be elderly people who wouldn't be travelling on their own. If someone doesn't understand the announcements then someone else can explain them in a more simple way or they can just do what everyone else is doing.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Clearly, things did not go well in Lewisham - my sibling told me he spotted a "large army of emergency service vehicles" on Friday, so I assumed something was very much amiss.

As for trying to attribute blame - of course the passengers never should have egressed themselves without instruction from rail or emergency staff. Had I been on that train and seen someone attempting to disembark, I would have tried to stop them, but sometimes there's not a lot you can do once mob mentality kicks in. That aside, I'm not going to say "he should have done this, she should have said that etc."

I won't, however, hear any of this "X should be fired" etc. I don't want to see people wishing or demanding unemployment of others because they "should have done something" or speculatively did something they shouldn't. Imagine you were that driver or signaller and interacting on this forum - why would you ever want to participate in a community like that?

Nobody here is in possession of all the facts. So wait for the report.

 

[paddington]

It's a open question whether all pax in these trains would be able to understand English, both the signage and the drivers announcements. There must be a case for automatic announcements to be recorded in 5 or 6 of the most widely spoken languages of Londoners.

Unlike say most large cities in the USA, where Spanish by a significant margin is the 2nd most spoken language, the languages spoken in particular areas of London vary quite a bit. I would say that the top 5 languages apart from English spoken on any one train would not be the same, and not even the same every day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unlike say most large cities in the USA, where Spanish by a significant margin is the 2nd most spoken language, the languages spoken in particular areas of London vary quite a bit. I would say that the top 5 languages apart from English spoken on any one train would not be the same, and not even the same every day.

Allegedly, according to the reading I did when that came under discussion a few days ago, the most spoken languages in the UK are English, Welsh and Polish, with the latter two about equal. Beyond that it gets rather bitty, particularly because of the existence of multiple languages spoken in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. So really the only ones there would be a case for are Welsh (which already is) and Polish (but most Polish people in the UK speak English - they are not generally averse to putting the effort in).

 

[EM2]

There's a blog post doing the rounds on social media written by a passenger on one of the trapped trains.
It appears to contradict almost everything that has come from official sources so far, but I personally think that the truth, as in so many cases, lies somewhere in between.
I'll supply the link later, as I'm currently on my phone, with a very weak and patchy signal...

 

[deltic]

I assume this is the link http://buzzsteam.com/2018/03/04/southeastern-commuter-train-stuck-at-lewisham/ - sounds horrific given the train was jammed pack

Also provides a link to ATOC guidance which states

 "Use of the Rule Book Full use should be made of the provisions included within the Rule Book for the movement of trains in degraded situations, particularly to enable trains to reach platforms."

also notes "Previous experience also indicates that passengers in the London area tend to be quicker to start to self evacuate than those elsewhere in the country"

 

[Antman]

Clearly, things did not go well in Lewisham - my sibling told me he spotted a "large army of emergency service vehicles" on Friday, so I assumed something was very much amiss.

As for trying to attribute blame - of course the passengers never should have egressed themselves without instruction from rail or emergency staff. Had I been on that train and seen someone attempting to disembark, I would have tried to stop them, but sometimes there's not a lot you can do once mob mentality kicks in. That aside, I'm not going to say "he should have done this, she should have said that etc."

I won't, however, hear any of this "X should be fired" etc. I don't want to see people wishing or demanding unemployment of others because they "should have done something" or speculatively did something they shouldn't. Imagine you were that driver or signaller and interacting on this forum - why would you ever want to participate in a community like that?

Nobody here is in possession of all the facts. So wait for the report.

The basic facts are quite apparent, to some extent it was just one of those things in view of the weather , I don't blame passengers for taking their own course of action. The main issue is why couldn't the train driver have been authorised to pull slowly into the empty platform which would have avoided all this.

 

[cuccir]

also notes "Previous experience also indicates that passengers in the London area tend to be quicker to start to self evacuate than those elsewhere in the country"

Presumably that's because there's usually (1) busier trains (2) with fewer facilities and (3) more tempting place to get out nearby. Being stood for 2 hours in a packed commuter train next to a road that might have buses running to your house is very different from sitting in an HST with a cafe-bar in a field in Nottinghamshire

 

[Mikey C]

I assume this is the link http://buzzsteam.com/2018/03/04/southeastern-commuter-train-stuck-at-lewisham/ - sounds horrific given the train was jammed pack

Also provides a link to ATOC guidance which states

 "Use of the Rule Book Full use should be made of the provisions included within the Rule Book for the movement of trains in degraded situations, particularly to enable trains to reach platforms."

also notes "Previous experience also indicates that passengers in the London area tend to be quicker to start to self evacuate than those elsewhere in the country"

Interesting and grim. I assume the actual stranded train was a Networker, strange that they would be more affected than the newer Electrostars?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

This seems to be going around the same circuits , how about locking it for now. ?

 

[Llanigraham]

The basic facts are quite apparent, to some extent it was just one of those things in view of the weather , I don't blame passengers for taking their own course of action. The main issue is why couldn't the train driver have been authorised to pull slowly into the empty platform which would have avoided all this.

Because they'd turned the power off!

 

[fusionblue]

I gather you work in the airline industry? So based on what I’ve just read, if something went wrong at an airport or an aircraft had a technical issue (which of course NEVER happens.......) and passengers were waiting on aircraft on the ground, you would presumably be ok with them popping the doors and using the slides to run around taxiways and runways to get out?

Airlines (at least in the US and EU) have a tarmac rule. If an airplane is on the ground and has not gone anywhere within 3 hours then they HAVE to be given the option to leave the plane - just opening the door at some remote area of the airfield doesn't count. I wonder if there should be a "within certain distance of station" a railway equivalent should apply.

 

[theironroad]

This seems to be going around the same circuits , how about locking it for now. ?

As the link provided in post #438 provides a very, very interesting account of events on the train and debunks a lot of the uninformed chatter in here, then I disagree.

It sounds like the DOO driver made regular, informative announcements keeping passengers updated. The blog writer also says the driver said he was ready to commence a controlled evacuation but was being blocked from doing so.

The link in the blog to the ATOC guidance issued in 2014 to rail undertakings is also very informative. Amongst it's guidelines is that an evacuation should commence after the 1st hour of being stranded and completed by the 2nd hour.

 

[Robertj21a]

This seems to be going around the same circuits , how about locking it for now. ?

No need to stop debate when there's still more coming out of the woodwork. This was a serious incident and many people want to input to, and better understand, the circumstances.
All credit to the rail staff willing to discuss the issues arising. The last thing we need is to feel that public input is not welcomed.

 

[bnm]

The first hand accounts from passengers on the stranded trains do make for interesting reading. They are justifiably heavily critical of the response to the situation from Southeastern and Network Rail.

I can see why we have rail staff here wanting the thread locked. Uncomfortable reading.