Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[Clip]

Hmmmm. I wonder how a oxy-acetylene torch is lit?

Oh hang on.

With a spark !

And miraculously i still haven't managed to blow my workshop up !

He didnt say it couldnt or shouldnt be done but he did say that it posed a safety risk - which it is.

 

[GB]

hmmm, I don't suppose your torch is constantly at risk of hitting obstructions on the line etc etc.

 

[Domh245]

Hmmmm. I wonder how a oxy-acetylene torch is lit?

Oh hang on.

With a spark !

And miraculously i still haven't managed to blow my workshop up !

I don't think it's the how that's the issue, but the when. The last thing you want is things suddenly igniting when the shoe gear arcs

 

[edwin_m]

There's a big difference between the relatively controlled environment of a workshop and a train carrying hundreds of people in a tunnel or other place that's difficult to access or evacuate. Even without a source of flammable gas, electric arcs have started very serious fires on trains.

 

[Steve Harris]

I don't think it's the how that's the issue, but the when. The last thing you want is things suddenly igniting when the shoe gear arcs

Thats why there's such a thing called a shut off valve.

Hence, things will only ignite when you want them to.

In new health & safety speak, its called a "control measure".

 

[Steve Harris]

There's a big difference between the relatively controlled environment of a workshop and a train carrying hundreds of people in a tunnel or other place that's difficult to access or evacuate. Even without a source of flammable gas, electric arcs have started very serious fires on trains.

Controlled ???

You obviously haven't been to where i work. Lots of grinding going on while gas welding and cutting.

Yes, an arc can start a fire IF something combustable is in its path or the arc makes something reach its melting point.
Hence, you would put a control measure in, i.e. not move the train until the source of the flammable gas has been isolated.

In other words, you would only use the gas torch lit, when a train was stuck and ice was on the top surface of the conductor rail. The supply of gas to the torch at all other times would be isolated.

 

[rebmcr]

The supply of gas to the torch at all other times would be isolated, unless there was a fault.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Northhighland]

Unfortunately, whilst in these cases the railway knows very well what the risks are, there may be tens of stranded trains, all loaded with fed up punters who might bail out. Until it happens, it's impossible to know where to send your limited resources and start evacuating. It's a very troubling situation, but difficult to know what the answer is frankly.

A better service surely? It is utterly unacceptable to leave people stranded on a train like that for hours with no toilet. Why would any employee of any rail company not realise that this presented a real danger to passengers? 3 hours? Utterly ridiculous situation. Contract should have severe penalties for this type of performance. Animals are transported in better conditions.

 

[Bromley boy]

I don’t think the railway has been too keen on gas tanks on trains since Quintinshill.

Funny that.

 

[Llanigraham]

I don’t think the railway has been too keen on gas tanks on trains since Quintinshill.

Funny that.

Or Charfield.

 

[Steve Harris]

Fixed that for you.

It doesn't need "fixing" because i would be putting double redundancy in the valve system, along with a manual valve and sensor !

Along with other things such as using only a small tank as we dont want trains blowing up now, do we ?

Mind you, according to some people on here they wouldn't mind seeing that !!

 

[Elecman]

I don’t think the railway has been too keen on gas tanks on trains since Quintinshill.

Funny that.

And a few subsequent accidents where fire was caused by leaking gas

 

[Dr Hoo]

I haven't got anything to add about gas torches but will again ask about conductor rail heating.

Given the evident scope for the Lewisham layout to create a 'checkmate' situation (basically stopping large numbers of trains from Charing Cross and Cannon Street, other than Greenwich Line) if a single train got stalled, can I yet again query whether Network Rail had installed/maintained/switched on heating in the area?

And if not, why not?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I don’t think the railway has been too keen on gas tanks on trains since Quintinshill.

Funny that.

Quite - with Ais Gill / Hawes Junction before , and Charfield in the 1920's.....

Some comments on here , which in a democratic world should be allowed , are non starters.....

 

[Signal Head]

... a lot of people were milling around on the open ground, but as I made my way down the steps there was a loud clang and a cheer went up, someone presumably having worked out that the vehicle access gates were not actually locked (as I passed I saw the padlock was still intact and secure on the bolt)

Well it should have been! It's a hanging offence to leave those unlocked.
I wonder if someone from the train had an Abloy key and opened it. I don't know if train crew carry them. I know those gates well, it's the access to the (former) relay room.

 

[tsr]

I wonder if someone from the train had an Abloy key and opened it. I don't know if train crew carry them.

Some do, some don’t. Depends very much on TOC and depot. In my opinion it’s a very good idea - it can get you out of all sorts of bother!

 

[farleigh]

Lots of posts still coming, and it is hard to judge the overall feeling but (if I read it correctly) the consensus of posters seems to be that the railway dealt with this incident very well in the circumstances?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lots of posts still coming, and it is hard to judge the overall feeling but (if I read it correctly) the consensus of posters seems to be that the railway dealt with this incident very well in the circumstances?

I'd say the staff consensus is that and the passenger consensus was that it was appalling.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I'd say the staff consensus is that and the passenger consensus was that it was appalling.

Is that correct? Don't the staff think it was handled as well as it could have been in the circumstances?

 

[Bromley boy]

Is that correct? Don't the staff think it was handled as well as it could have been in the circumstances?

That's more like it.

It's difficult to see how it could have been handled any differently given the unique set of challenging circumstances, constraints of the rulebook, inadequate staffing etc.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'd say the staff consensus is that and the passenger consensus was that it was appalling.

I think most posts from the staff all seem to agree that the entire situation was handled badly but thanks for the bias as always.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think most posts from the staff all seem to agree that the entire situation was handled badly but thanks for the bias as always.

Posts from staff seem to be more mindful of the limitations of the Rule Book. Its interpretation of its limitations here (particularly on whether the incident train could have drawn forward into an occupied section) is the source of some disagreement.

Would agree though that staff are hardly saying this incident was a beacon of operational excellence.

The railway does have a long way to come in terms of understanding human factors.

 

[RichardKing]

https://twitter.com/T_Mackintosh/status/972429755407654912

Not Lewisham, nor is it a self-evacuation, but this video shows an absolute idiot walking across the space between platforms 2 and 3 at East Croydon, stepping dangerously close to the third rail as he negotiates the lines.

As many will know, the line speed through here is not as fast as other stations in the area, such as South Croydon (although an impact still wouldn't be pretty), but the curved layout restricts how far you can see up the line and I assume the trespasser isn't aware of the bi-directional nature of both platforms?

 

[Bromley boy]

https://twitter.com/T_Mackintosh/status/972429755407654912

Not Lewisham, nor is it a self-evacuation, but this video shows an absolute idiot walking across the space between platforms 2 and 3 at East Croydon, stepping dangerously close to the third rail as he negotiates the lines.

As many will know, the line speed through here is not as fast as other stations in the area, such as South Croydon (although an impact still wouldn't be pretty), but the curved layout restricts how far you can see up the line and I assume the trespasser isn't aware of the bi-directional nature of both platforms?

Extraordinary. If he had been struck by a train or juiced, I’d have absolutely no sympathy at all.

This is of course completely different to the situation at Lewisham.

 

[Bayum]

What would have happened if there were a medical emergency?

 

[Bromley boy]

What would have happened if there were a medical emergency?

On one of the stranded trains at Lewisham?

There would likely have been a significant delay in the emergency services reaching the casualty*. As I understand it they are not allowed onto the tracks until a MOM is present. Stretchering a casualty over ballast and track wouldn't be a walk in the park, either.

Thankfully it didn't happen.

*This is also why, even in normal circumstances, if someone is taken ill on a DOO train I would urge passengers to please avoid using the PASSCOM until the train is at a station where assistance can be rendered.

If on a guarded train of course you should tell the guard immediately and they can make a PA appealing for any medically trained individuals on board to assist the casualty.

 

[Robertj21a]

What would have happened if there were a medical emergency?

If sufficiently serious it may have resulted in death - no different to what happens if an ambulance/doctor can't get to you in time.

 

[amcluesent]

Don't the staff think it was handled as well as it could have been in the circumstances?

If the eye-witness reports are true, the driver certainly didn't think so, having repeatedly sought permission to move into the station at caution to allow a safe pax egress. We can only wait for the RAIB report.

 

[RichardKing]

Extraordinary. If he had been struck by a train or juiced, I’d have absolutely no sympathy at all.

This is of course completely different to the situation at Lewisham.

Neither would I...people like that don't realise how many people would be affected as a result of his stupid actions.

I didn't want to start a new thread for this incident, so thought that one about the dangers of being near the third rail would be most appropriate.

 

[rebmcr]

What would have happened if there were a medical emergency?

On one of the stranded trains at Lewisham?

There would likely have been a significant delay in the emergency services reaching the casualty*. As I understand it they are not allowed onto the tracks until a MOM is present. Stretchering a casualty over ballast and track wouldn't be a walk in the park, either.

I can't help but believe that the answer to the driver's requests for movement authority under caution would have suddenly become closer to 'yes'.