Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[68000]

With regard to the PA, all cabs have the connection to GSM-R where the existing cab had a PA system. This is 100% where it is a DOO operator. I cannot remember if SET took up the option of a UPS for the GSM-R radio

 

[Bromley boy]

Then ... apologists like you spew forth opinions and rules & regs justifying the (in)actions of the operators. The current mindset seems to be "if we do nothing we can't be held accountable if things get worse" ... "lets keep the cattle penned on the train and if they soil themselves it's their problem". No it isn't. The operators have a duty of care to their passengers, including making sure they don't have to undergo the humiliation of ****ing in a bottle/out of a door/into their own underwear.

This is OTT. Of course no one was expecting to be trapped for hours, but equally nobody travelling on Southeastern yesterday would (or should!) have been expecting plain sailing. From mid afternoon the advice on the website was "PLEASE DO NOT TRAVEL" in capital letters.

What is it you want TOCs to do in these situations other than run what service they can and advise people not to travel? If SE had simply stopped running trains altogether to avoid any risk they'd be pilloried for it. They were even pilloried in the press on Monday for advising passengers to complete their journeys by 1800 to avoid disruption due to forecast snow when in fact no snow then materialised.

I'm sure the Twitterverse was seething with rage, but the TOC Twitter drones just keep on with the same platitudes. Its the same with every TOC, a facade of customer service with nothing behind it.

Agreed. But are your surprised? Everything on the railway, from customer service to safety, is secondary to money.

 

[farleigh]

Just a question.

The railway staff don't have the necessary training to evacuate passengers but the passengers evacuated themselves without a problem.

Is that statement correct?

 

[4069]

It has been officially announced that the RAIB have been appointed to undertake a full independent investigation into the events at Lewisham last night. Good swift decision making and to be commended.

Sorry, that's not true. Nobody (other than the Secretary of State) can appoint the RAIB to do anything.

What the BBC says is that SouthEastern and Network Rail have hired an independent investigator to review the matter. That will not be the RAIB. When there was a similar incident involving stranded Eurostars a few years back, a retired senior railway manager conducted an investigation for the company. I imagine the same sort of thing is contemplated here.

Any decision by the RAIB to investigate will be taken later, and will be announced by them.

 

[EM2]

Just a question.

The railway staff don't have the necessary training to evacuate passengers but the passengers evacuated themselves without a problem.

Is that statement correct?

Basically, yes.
That doesn't mean that there couldn't have been a problem, however. Ballast and sleepers can be difficult enough to walk on at the best of times, let alone when they're covered in snow and someone is likely to be wearing less-than-suitable footwear. Rails are slippery, and hurt if you fall on them, and the less said about hitting the juice rail or a Networker hitting you, the better.

 

[farleigh]

Basically, yes.

So if people with no training or knowledge of the railway can do it, is it actually that difficult to train staff?

 

[EM2]

So if people with no training or knowledge of the railway can do it, is it actually that difficult to train staff?

See my edited post.

 

[Bromley boy]

Just a question.

The railway staff don't have the necessary training to evacuate passengers but the passengers evacuated themselves without a problem.

Is that statement correct?

Station staff aren't trained to walk safely on the track. That wouldn't be allowed to follow a member of the public jumping down onto it (they could call the electrical control room and request an emergency switch off).

What does that prove?

 

[Bromley boy]

So if people with no training or knowledge of the railway can do it, is it actually that difficult to train staff?

No. But it costs money.

 

[farleigh]

See my edited post.

Thanks EM2 - that is useful. It just seems (to me as a layperson) that it is not that difficult as long as you know that there are no trains and the current is off. But I do understand that you might hurt your feet on the ballast.

Sometimes it seems that some railway staff can be too hidebound by the rules etc and neglect common sense. That is just how it appears to me.

Problemeople on train stuck near station.
Solution: Get them safely to station

I am just a member of the public but am interested to learn more

 

[theironroad]

So if people with no training or knowledge of the railway can do it, is it actually that difficult to train staff?

There's 2 components:

PTS (personal track safety) which is about how to conduct yourself on and around the track, includes emergency protocols for unsafe operations. attached to this is a module if required to work around DC lines (3rd rail) or a separate one for OHLe areas.

Second is evacuation training. Drivers and guards are taught it, but the issue is that 1 driver with a failed train (maybe failed pa)with possible 100s or on stock like the new thameslink 700s which may have in xcess of 1500 people on board is going to struggle just on numbers alone . Having a guard helps but it's still a mammoth task. A controlled evacuation will ensure all lines are closed to traffic and power to the 3rd rails isolated. Generally managers and btp, fire etc +NR staff will be brought in to manage it. A controlled evacuation is supposed to be an orderly areas where passengers are briefed about the route and potential dangers.

To train all station staff in PTS and evacuation training requires they attain medical standards laid down for safety critical work now harmonised to EU practices. It requires the employer to regular train and assess these staff and provide them with the safety equipment for the job.

This means taking station staff off their core job. This, training, assessments kit, management etc all has budgetary implications which the TOC don't really want for an odd event.

 

[Bromley boy]

Sometimes it seems that some railway staff can be too hidebound by the rules etc and neglect common sense. That is just how it appears to me.

What are you basing that on?

I think what you're forgetting is that railstaff know just how many people die on the railways, not necessarily by suicide. Almost on a weekly basis it seems a body is found somewhere on the network.

Nobody is saying that PTS is rocket science, but you do need to know things like which rail not to step on and how to avoid having your foot amputated by moving points. Ground level on the railway is a highly dangerous environment, particularly at night when the ground is covered with snow.

Every year there are incidents involving p-way snd other staff who are in theory trained to conduct themselves correctly.

 

[HSTEd]

Surely the solution is to, as far as possible, provide walkways alongside all running lines, and improve the granularity of DC sectioning so the rail on the line the train is on can be isolated without collapsing the whole network.

Essentially more track paralleling huts and improved comms with the electrical control room.

 

[farleigh]

There's 2 components:

PTS (personal track safety) which is about how to conduct yourself on and around the track, includes emergency protocols for unsafe operations. attached to this is a module if required to work around DC lines (3rd rail) or a separate one for OHLe areas.

Second is evacuation training. Drivers and guards are taught it, but the issue is that 1 driver with a failed train (maybe failed pa)with possible 100s or on stock like the new thameslink 700s which may have in xcess of 1500 people on board is going to struggle just on numbers alone . Having a guard helps but it's still a mammoth task. A controlled evacuation will ensure all lines are closed to traffic and power to the 3rd rails isolated. Generally managers and btp, fire etc +NR staff will be brought in to manage it. A controlled evacuation is supposed to be an orderly areas where passengers are briefed about the route and potential dangers.

To train all station staff in PTS and evacuation training requires they attain medical standards laid down for safety critical work now harmonised to EU practices. It requires the employer to regular train and assess these staff and provide them with the safety equipment for the job.

This means taking station staff off their core job. This, training, assessments kit, management etc all has budgetary implications which the TOC don't really want for an odd event.

Thanks Ironroad - sorry for my ignorance. As I said it seems so simple to a layperson, but in reality it is clear that it is very complex.

 

[farleigh]

What are you basing that on?

I think what you're forgetting is that railstaff know just how many people die on the railways, not necessarily by suicide. Almost on a weekly basis it seems a body is found somewhere on the network.

Nobody is saying that PTS is rocket science, but you do need to know things like which rail not to step on and how to avoid having your foot amputated by moving points. Ground level on the railway is a highly dangerous environment, particularly at night when the ground is covered with snow.

Every year there are incidents involving p-way snd other staff who are in theory trained to conduct themselves correctly.

Sorry BB - I was just saying how it seems to a layperson, not asserting anything. To a guy like you who has deep expertise it is clear, but to someone like me without your qualifications etc it just seemed to be as simple as avoiding the live rail and avoid trains. I know better now, especially about not putting feet near points etc. I do still think it remarkable that nobody within a three hour horizon could safely evacuate the passengers but they could do it themselves. That was why I was asking really

 

[theironroad]

Surely the solution is to, as far as possible, provide walkways alongside all running lines, and improve the granularity of DC sectioning so the rail on the line the train is on can be isolated without collapsing the whole network.

Essentially more track paralleling huts and improved comms with the electrical control room.

Sorry, have been just read that correctly......"provide walkways alongside all running lines". Well if nothing else I'll give you 10/10 for a job creation program for the next decade

 

[Bromley boy]

Sorry BB - I was just saying how it seems to a layperson, not asserting anything. To a guy like you who has deep expertise it is clear, but to someone like me without your qualifications etc it just seemed to be as simple as avoiding the live rail and avoid trains. I know better now, especially about not putting feet near points etc. I do still think it remarkable that nobody within a three hour horizon could safely evacuate the passengers but they could do it themselves. That was why I was asking really

No worries - as I say it’s absolutely not rocket science, but the reality of de training a load of completely unfamiliar passengers and navigating them to safety wouldn’t be something I’d like to have to contend with!

Especially as Lewisham is a complex junction with points and third rails galore and steep slopes next to the cess.

 

[theironroad]

Sorry BB - I was just saying how it seems to a layperson, not asserting anything. To a guy like you who has deep expertise it is clear, but to someone like me without your qualifications etc it just seemed to be as simple as avoiding the live rail and avoid trains. I know better now, especially about not putting feet near points etc. I do still think it remarkable that nobody within a three hour horizon could safely evacuate the passengers but they could do it themselves. That was why I was asking really

It doesn't take 3 hours. The issue is that at some point someone has to take the decison there will be a controlled evacuation (with the resources in place) where no one is going to endanger themselves or get hurt. Initiating a controlled evacuation is above the drivers head.

Essentially what happend the other day was an uncontrolled (used to be called emergency) evacuation which is generally what would happen if there was a crash, fire, bomb , derailment etc where there is an immediate danger to life.

 

[farleigh]

No worries - as I say it’s absolutely not rocket science, but the reality of de training a load of completely unfamiliar passengers and navigating them to safety wouldn’t be something I’d like to have to contend with!

Especially as Lewisham is a complex junction with points and third rails galore and steep slopes next to the cess.

Thanks BB

 

[farleigh]

It doesn't take 3 hours. The issue is that at some point someone has to take the decison there will be a controlled evacuation (with the resources in place) where no one is going to endanger themselves or get hurt. Initiating a controlled evacuation is above the drivers head.

Essentially what happend the other day was an uncontrolled (used to be called emergency) evacuation which is generally what would happen if there was a crash, fire, bomb , derailment etc where there is an immediate danger to life.

So nobody made the decision then? That seems awful

 

[theironroad]

So nobody made the decision then? That seems awful

Well i can't say for certain but it appears not. It appears the police and ambulance staff etc arrived in response to the report that passengers were wandering over the tracks by themselves. The media reports suggest that the police etc then finished the job in a controlled fashion but obviously this now screwed all other trains in area as the juice was off.

 

[Busaholic]

Anyone else remember/ have any details of when Central Line passengers were stuck overnight for some hours between Liverpool Street and Mile End? I'm fairly certain of the location and would suggest it happened sometime in the late 1970s/early 1980s, so NOT the derailment of 2007. I particularly took note because I'd worked at Central Line HQ at Oxford Circus in the early 70s, but had left the Tube by the time it happened. Can't find an internet mention, but nobody was killed or injured so probably a forgotten incident.

 

[theageofthetra]

Sorry, that's not true. Nobody (other than the Secretary of State) can appoint the RAIB to do anything.

What the BBC says is that SouthEastern and Network Rail have hired an independent investigator to review the matter. That will not be the RAIB. When there was a similar incident involving stranded Eurostars a few years back, a retired senior railway manager conducted an investigation for the company. I imagine the same sort of thing is contemplated here.

Any decision by the RAIB to investigate will be taken later, and will be announced by them.

Thanks for clarification.

 

[Tom B]

It's not a question of expecting it, but rather that **** happens. There were warnings aplenty about the weather, if people were not prepared for it that is not my fault.
In the boot of my car is a bag packed with a change of clothes, a washbag, a flask and some crisps and chocolate, there's also some wellies, a shovel, a scraper, screenwash and de-icer, and in the bag I carry for work I have a torch, spare batteries for the torch and a powerbank for my mobile. I live ten minutes drive from work, but I never know when I might need any of it.
Actually, I tell a lie. The torch is in the car as well.

I wouldn't carry that much equipment in a car if I were driving 5 miles in the inner city, but if I were going up to Scotland I would carry the above plus a set of tools, spare lamps, fuses, spark plugs, contact set etc. Based on a sensible assessment of the risk and likely inconvenience of being caught without something when you are 5 miles vs 500 miles from home.

A similar thing applies to train travel - the preparation, and what you would look to pack, varies wildly depending on whether you are going on a short regular journey or to the other side of the country.

 

[bnm]

From mid afternoon the advice on the website was "PLEASE DO NOT TRAVEL" in capital letters.

If that's the advice then why the heck did Southeastern continue to run a service?

You can't tell people not to travel but continue running trains. That's bonkers.

 

[theageofthetra]

Thanks BB

There is a network rail access point directly behind where that 376 failed- you could have parked several emergency vehicles on it.. The rear coach would have been quite close to it and would have been safer than via Lewisham jct.

 

[swj99]

This shouldn't turn into a blame game, it was exceptional circumstances and hardly something that is likely to occur on a regular basis.

I don't see what more Southeastern could have reasonably done in the circumstances and I don't blame the passengers who decided to get off.

Unfortunately it already has become a blame game. I agree the circumstances were exceptional , but most incidents in which passengers get off a train onto the tracks are exceptional.

On one side of the blame argument are those calling passengers idiots, and on the other side, those saying the TOC could have managed the incident better. Sadly, blame alone will not cure the problem.
I believe the reality is that passengers will continue to get off broken down trains all the time TOCs fail to proactively manage the situation, and this includes reliable, consistent communication with passengers and prompt resolution of the problem. Poor and sometimes non existent communication and long delays are what seem to prompt people to take matters into their own hands.

Here's a link to the BBC news page when FCC were prosecuted and fined under the Health and Safety at Work Act.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24107132

look forward to a smart lawyer winning a case for false imprisonment personally. railcos need to get their act together.

I'm not sure about the unlawful detention angle. I'll ask around about that next week.

This one's not railway related, but .... Unlawful Detention - Lewis v HSBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14046113

so how long is it acceptable to detain people on a train for? 4 hours? 12 hours? or can they be left to die of hypothermia or thirst?

stating that trespassing is wrong under all circumstances is absurd.

Leaving a failed / stranded train is not trespassing.

From the CPS website, guidance for crown prosecutors.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/road_traffic_offences_transport_offences/#trespass

Railway Trespass

Several summary offences deal with this (Stones 7-7041):

Section 16 Railway Regulation Act 1840: it is an offence to wilfully trespass on any railway or premises connected therewith and to refuse to leave when asked to do so by any officer or agent of the railway company. 'Wilfulness' can be proved by the refusal to leave. The offence is punishable by one month's imprisonment

Section 23 Regulation of the Railways Act 1868: this prohibits passage upon or across any railway line except for the purpose of crossing the line at an authorised point. A person commits an offence by so doing after having once received warning by the railway company, their servants or agents, to desist

Section 55 British Transport Commission Act 1949: this penalises trespass on railway lines or property in dangerous proximity to such lines or electrical apparatus. Evidence is required of a notice exhibited at the station nearest the place of offence providing a clear public warning not to trespass on a railway. Punishable by a fine.

A possible defence could be to say you were not trespassing. You were a legitimate passenger on the train, until the point when you realized that it was not going anyway. After that, you simply decided to leave, and you did so by the shortest route you could find off the railway.

The section 16 offence has a requirement that the alleged offender refuses to leave, however in the case of someone exiting a train and leaving the railway by the most direct route, the offence would not be complete as there would no element of refusal to leave.

A person who was legitimate passenger on the train at the point when they realized that it was not going anywhere, would not be a trespasser by simply leaving by the shortest route they could find to the nearest station, or off railway property.

Indeed. Somebody operating an egress in those circumstances after one hour is nothing but impatient, and I agree that behaviour is needless and unnecessary.

I don't. Not when the train is stopped within sight of a station. Patience may or may not be a factor, and it's a matter for each individual on the train. I fully understand why people eventually take matters into their own hands in situations like this, and in some cases, I'm surprised people wait as long as they do before getting off.

The first person out was a fool,.....

What you're saying makes a lot of sense, however fool probably isn't the word I would have used. I think that person is a natural leader, who took the initiative. I would guess that for every person who makes a bold decision like that, there will be many, many more who wished they'd been a little more brave so they could have taken the decision first. I also think that as a country, we need more people like that to highlight inept bureaucracy and bring about some practical, joined up thinking, and an environment in which TOCs will choose to work proactively and prevent situations from deteriorating to the point where anyone would consider it necessary to detrain of their own initiative.

.........Perhaps the passengers who gave up waiting and left the train have done us all a big favour by highlighting the various issues - whether they be poor communication, poor infrastructure, poor training.......

Yep, sounds about right.

 

[theageofthetra]

By controller do you mean Signaler ? There are many occasions I have sat on a signal with no communication from the Signaler. SG - Wait is the norm. We have pushed for more General Broadcasts to be used but they are rarer than rocking horse poo.

From my 'control' ? Very much non existent. With GSMR 3.6 Our control can now contact us but again its rare. However this is a new system so time will tell what happens.

Getting communication to the Driver (at least from my perspective) has always been pretty much non existent.

I was told unofficially that some older signalling staff simply don't know how to use GSMR general broadcast- particularly those in a panel about to be relocated. It's a very useful tool and I don't know why it isn't used more- was it in this case?- hopefully this independent report will tell all.

 

[farleigh]

I think that signalling staff skills have improved immensely in recent years

 

[HSTEd]

Sorry, have been just read that correctly......"provide walkways alongside all running lines". Well if nothing else I'll give you 10/10 for a job creation program for the next decade

Well really we should be replacing traditional ballasted track with slab track anyway.
And that would provide a nice walkway for passengers.