Passengers forcing their way off stranded trains

[Old Timer]

LOL I see not many people have replied to this little rant!

To be honest I am not that bothered.

Too many people wearing rose tinted glasses and talking crap about things they know sweet FA about.

Trouble is they are the sort of people who would lead others into doing something stupid.

Forcing doors and going down onto the track is stupid, highly dangerous, causes criminal damage (as it can affects the door control), and is the source of greater disruption.

I am pretty certain that on every train emergency notice, there is a sentence warning that it is safer to stay on the train than to disembark. As was proved by the HST power car fire near Slough (if I recall correctly) some years back when someone bailed out into the path of an Up Service.

The railway professionals on here have gone into great detail about why it is very dangerous to bale out but we continue to get the same attitudes.

I think the Railway is one of the few Industries where out and out numpties fell confident enough to come onto websites and try to out-argue the professionals.

As I said in my post I believe that there is action the Industry can take but it needs to wrestle back managerial and staff decision making initiative away from the desk bound Health & Safety "professionals" who have all but hog-tied the Railways with absurdities and unneccessary red-tape and bureaucracy.

 

[cuccir]

I think a starting point here is that there's clearly a gap between public perception of the danger of getting out of a train and the actual danger. People probably need a few adverts scaring them with the specific threats/dangers of wandering on live rail. We're pretty much all people with either an above-average interest in rail, or who work in the rail industry: we're likely to be among the more clued up as to what the dangers of breaking out of a train are.

People aren't always rational, especially in unpleasant conditions, so they need to be persuaded to fear getting out of a stopped train.

 

[strange6]

To be honest I am not that bothered.

Too many people wearing rose tinted glasses and talking crap about things they know sweet FA about.

Trouble is they are the sort of people who would lead others into doing something stupid.

Forcing doors and going down onto the track is stupid, highly dangerous, causes criminal damage (as it can affects the door control), and is the source of greater disruption.

I am pretty certain that on every train emergency notice, there is a sentence warning that it is safer to stay on the train than to disembark. As was proved by the HST power car fire near Slough (if I recall correctly) some years back when someone bailed out into the path of an Up Service.

The railway professionals on here have gone into great detail about why it is very dangerous to bale out but we continue to get the same attitudes.

I think the Railway is one of the few Industries where out and out numpties fell confident enough to come onto websites and try to out-argue the professionals.

As I said in my post I believe that there is action the Industry can take but it needs to wrestle back managerial and staff decision making initiative away from the desk bound Health & Safety "professionals" who have all but hog-tied the Railways with absurdities and unneccessary red-tape and bureaucracy.

yes, but most doors can be released within the saloon by anybody in an emergency. If being stuck within the saloon on a roasting hot day with no air circulation whatsoever is not an emergency, then i don't know what is. Like I said previously, going out on to a live track is stupid and you deserved to be punished; but forcing the doors open to lower the saloon temperature is simply common sense as well as a matter of life preservation!

 

[williamn]

I think the real question is why it takes SO LONG to move a failed train. It's not as if it's in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Old Timer]

yes, but most doors can be released within the saloon by anybody in an emergency. If being stuck within the saloon on a roasting hot day with no air circulation whatsoever is not an emergency, then i don't know what is. Like I said previously, going out on to a live track is stupid and you deserved to be punished; but forcing the doors open to lower the saloon temperature is simply common sense as well as preserving life.

I do accept your point but a problem would be that people would push their way to the open doors and at some point you would have someone on the track anyway, either by accident or design.

In any case I would have thought it was not beyond the wit of the manufacturers to have produced a HVAC system that could keep a train sufficiently cold.

That said this will always only ever be a solution as long as the traction current remains on.

The majority of detrainments in anycase are not from those about to die but involve the "Alpha-Male screw you as long as MY needs are satisfied and I get to do what I want when I want" type .

 

[strange6]

I do accept your point but a problem would be that people would push their way to the open doors and at some point you would have someone on the track anyway, either by accident or design.

In any case I would have thought it was not beyond the wit of the manufacturers to have produced a HVAC system that could keep a train sufficiently cold.

That said this will always only ever be a solution as long as the traction current remains on.

The majority of detrainments in anycase are not from those about to die but involve the "Alpha-Male screw you as long as MY needs are satisfied and I get to do what I want when I want" type .

I fully agree with you and the only way to stop it is by putting people up before the courts and making an example of them. However, up here in Northern land, the only way of keeping a train cool is by cutting off the roof and running at 70mph.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I fully agree with you and the only way to stop it is by putting people up before the courts and making an example of them. However, up here in Northern land, the only way of keeping a train cool is by cutting off the roof and running at 70mph.

Unless you are on a 158, which have air con. As do all units belonging to TPE, VT, XC etc...

 

[Chapeltom]

People are not stupid, they know what a third rail is and to walk on the side of the track where the third rail isn't.

How long are they supposed to wait without any information?
2 hours?
10 hours?
2 days?
a week?

At some point they have to say, "Perhaps we have simply been forgotten. We are not helpless people in a concentration camp, we can fend for ourselves, damn the torpedoes - full speed ahead".

Many people are stupid though, that is the problem because as soon as one loon decides to pull open the doors others will inevitably follow!

I would rather sit on a train for a few hours than be daft enough to get off in an unofficial evacuation.

As for the 2 hours, 10 hours, 2 days or a week, 99% of these sorts of delays will be sorted within a reasonable length of time. I can't remember the last time I read of a train being delayed for a day and I've read the Daily Mail a few times

 

[strange6]

Unless you are on a 158, which have air con. As do all units belonging to TPE, VT, XC etc...

I haven't seen a Northern 158 around Manchester in months. They were on the Leeds - manchester services a few months back but seem to have disappeared

 

[yorksrob]

I fully agree with you and the only way to stop it is by putting people up before the courts and making an example of them. However, up here in Northern land, the only way of keeping a train cool is by cutting off the roof and running at 70mph.

Alas I tend to find that up in Northern land there rarely seems to be the need to keep the train cool

 

[Class 466]

As has been said many time before, if it was livestock in transit everything would be done to resolve the situation for fear of RSPCA et al kicking off and the ToC was fined £££s

TBH, it baffles me why a failed train can't be pushed by the following train, likely at no more than walking pace, into the next station and siding.

We didn't win the war by waiting for 'the man' from HQ.

On smaller routes e.g the medway valley line, when one 2 car notworker fails the get another to push it to strood where it is then taken to Gillingham this solves the problem in less than an hour and the line is open again but this theory often fails because of the position of the train.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I haven't seen a Northern 158 around Manchester in months. They were on the Leeds - manchester services a few months back but seem to have disappeared

Northern land isn't just Manchester! 158 are prominent around the south and east of the network and York-Blackpool. IIRC 180s have it too, now they are around Manchester!

EDIT - I believe Vic-Leeds is regularly diagrammed 158s...

 

[michael769]

The driver comes on the PA and says 'there's a broken down train ahead of us, we can't move anywhere until it gets going again, I can't tell you when that will be'.
What else do you want to know? There is NOTHING ELSE to tell!

How about "I have been onto the control room and they tell me that engineers will be on scene in 15 mins"

15mins later....

"The engineers are about 5 mins away now"

5 mins later

"I am told the engineers are on the scene... Once they have had a chance to look at it I'll be able to give an update on what is going to happen"

15 mins later

"They have finally for the train moving, but it is moving pretty slowly I'm told we will be able to move in 5 mins".

Is that really too much to ask? Someone somewhere knows what is going on (amusing NR and the ToCs don't just sit around and blame passengers whenever anything goes wrong), and with modern communications getting that to the train should be child's play.

Whatever we think about people forcing their way off trains - this will continue to happen until the industry wakes up to the problem and comes up with constructive ways to address it. The simplest and cheapest solution is to provide adequate and regular updates. Making "I have no idea when this will end" type announcements every 5 minutes is not providing information, it's just insulting to claim otherwise.

But the industry must also accept that it has a moral duty of care towards the people that bit imprisons inside locked greenhouses, and for extended delays it must provide proactive support and assistant to trapped passengers.

Saying prosecute the passengers with trespass is all very well - but people are prosecuted for speeding every day of the week - has that stopped rampant speeding on our roads? All it will do is encourage people to get away from the train ASAP and and avoid rail staff to avoid being caught, probably putting them in more danger and causing more disruption.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Now I am sorry if I am about to offend people but...TOUGH, yes I know its a bi**h when its 30 plus degrees and the trains busy, its uncomfortable, its sweaty it can make you feel ill. and the guard or Driver (if its DOO) hasn't given you the answers you want to hear or the information you require, HOWEVER one thing that I can guarantee in a situation like this, people may not be stupid BUT they have very narrow views about what to do, they will not look for dangers like 3rd rail (750 DC) enough to melt through your legs or overhead wires (25kv fries you from the insides) they will not look for an oncoming train that will cut you into thousands of tiny little pieces over the track, they will just want to get out and will not care how they do it, so the next person to say "don't blame them" could you kindly hold that persons hand until they are out of harms way otherwise they will just be another statistic as a fatality on the railway!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Alas I tend to find that up in Northern land there rarely seems to be the need to keep the train cool

we have old style air con....its called opening a window (or 30) lol

 

[michael769]

they will not look for dangers like 3rd rail (750 DC) enough to melt through your legs or overhead wires (25kv fries you from the insides) they will not look for an oncoming train that will cut you into thousands of tiny little pieces over the track, they will just want to get out and will not care how they do itl

All the more reason why the rail industry needs to address the problem proactively and effectively, instead of ignoring it until the inevitable fatality occurs.

 

[DelayRepay]

I don't work on the railway; I travel to work on the railway and was caught up in the chaos tonight. I haven't seen it mentioned on here but the police closed Cannon Street at one point due to dangerous overcrowding.

Here is my view:

As a member of the public, I would only attempt to get off a train in an emergency, such as a fire where I was in immediate danger. I therefore think the people who "broke out" of the train were rather silly.

However, why on earth does it take so long for a train to be rescued? Why on earth can't supplies of cold water be delivered by road on a hot day like today? Why on earth did the whole of Kent's railways come to a standstill this evening due to one broken down train? My own train goes nowhere near Dartford (I travel on the Sevenoaks via Grove Park service) yet it took me two hours longer than normal to get home.

I know it's not a direct comparison but the bank I work for has disaster recovery plans in place. We only have one call centre but if there is an emergency, we can be up and running again within 45 minutes from an alternative site. And we test this twice a year to make sure it works. Why don't the railways seem to have such plans in place?

When my train did eventually arrive at Cannon Street, it was only six coaches long. Yet there were 10/12 coach sets sat in platforms that couldn't go anywhere because there were no drivers. Why couldn't our driver have used one of those sets, which would have meant half the passengers at London Bridge wouldn't have been left behind?

I think those people calling the passengers idiots need to direct their anger at Southeastern's management who are not capable of running a Hornby trainset, let alone a real railway.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

All the more reason why the rail industry needs to address the problem proactively and effectively, instead of ignoring it until the inevitable fatality occurs.

95% of train crew will give out info when they get it, but if we don't give people what they want, stupidity takes over

 

[strange6]

Northern land isn't just Manchester!

Yes, I know! But I would like to see Northern's best stock in my area once in a while

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Yes, I know! But I would like to see Northern's best stock in my area once in a while

you get our "best" 142's lol don't be greedy

 

[moggie]

There's only going to be one way of sorting this - BTP must prosecute - even if it's only a handful of individuals. Let them have their day in court and we'll see what the law decides on the merits of the arguments - emergency allegations / false imprisonment versus the negligent actions of ignorant individuals decending onto the tracks, contrary to railway byelaws.

If the TOC loses then there is clearly going to be a cost implication in having to staff up with NR to cover the eventuality of trains at a stand though lord knows what and where this provision should be - and with the bill underwritten by all fare paying passengers - that will no doubt make everyone feel better.

If the TOC wins then publish the names and amount of the fines at every station along the line on a big F**k off size poster and press home the verdict with further prosecutions on each and every occassion some numpty tries it on.

If there's a genuine emergency talk to the train crew or dial 999 but there will be little sympathy when it turns out it's just a temper tantrum with no mummy around to make it better.

For those who have to suffer because of one persons impatience and because it's hot, isolating power to the train isn't going to help those who have a higher tolerance level is it?

One way or another a free for all as appears to becoming the trend at present is untenable. OT is bang on.

 

[yorksrob]

you get our "best" 142's lol don't be greedy

Yes, I wan't to keep the best stock in Yorkshire please

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Yes, I wan't to keep the best stock in Yorkshire please

I signed 158's for approx 6 months and only worked them once...gutted lol

 

[strange6]

you get our "best" 142's lol don't be greedy

best we get on the Wigan Wallgate routes is a 156 with working toilets

 

[michael769]

95% of train crew will give out info when they get it, but if we don't give people what they want, stupidity takes over

That's my point here.

Surely it's not beyond the ToC and NR to work together to get relevant updates to the train crews to pass on. The overall impression they (NR and ToCs) give out is that passengers and their reasonable expectations are an inconvenience to be fobbed off with pointless insulting messages, rather than their #1 top priority.

The passengers are wall aware that someone somewhere knows well fine what is going on, and in most cases would be perfectly capable of passing that info on, and are at an absolute loss as to why in this day and age that information is being wilfully withheld from them - no wonder people get angry. It's just insulting.

Insult the general public at you peril is my message to everyone who works within the rail industry.

 

[yorksrob]

I signed 158's for approx 6 months and only worked them once...gutted lol

Indeed, although if you're based in Lancs that's more for us !

 

[ANorthernGuard]

That's my point here.

Surely it's not beyond the ToC and NR to work together to get relevant updates to the train crews to pass on. The overall impression they (NR and ToCs) give out is that passengers and their reasonable expectations are an inconvenience to be fobbed off with pointless insulting messages, rather than their #1 top priority.

The passengers are wall aware that someone somewhere knows well fine what is going on, and in most cases would be perfectly capable of passing that info on, and are at an absolute loss as to why in this day and age that information is being wilfully withheld from them - no wonder people get angry. It's just insulting.

Insult the general public at you peril is my message to everyone who works within the rail industry.

This is how it works....

first they need to figure out the problem, so they have to wait for the MOM (mobile on call manager) and Pway lads to look at the problem and figure it (minimum 45-60 minutes usually)

They tell Network Rail Control

Network Rail Control tells the TOC's Control

The TOCS tell there Traincrew (up here its blackberries but TOC's use different methods

Traincrew tell Pax

the MOM tells Network Rail they need to Source a part (add another 45-60 mins)

They Tell Network Rail Control

Network Rail Tell the TOC's

The TOC's tell the TrainCrew

Traincrew Tells Pax

60+ minutes have passed

MOM tells Network Rail problem has been fixed

Network Rail tells the TOC's

The TOC's tell the Traincrew

The Traincrew wait for the Signaller

The Signals STILL on RED

Driver speaks to Signaller

Signaller hasn't got clearence

We Wait

And Wait

Driver gets a Green

We get Going

Apologies over the Tannoy


Just another day in the office for your average Joe Bloggs Guard

 

[Old Timer]

That's my point here.

Surely it's not beyond the ToC and NR to work together to get relevant updates to the train crews to pass on. The overall impression they (NR and ToCs) give out is that passengers and their reasonable expectations are an inconvenience to be fobbed off with pointless insulting messages, rather than their #1 top priority.

The passengers are wall aware that someone somewhere knows well fine what is going on, and in most cases would be perfectly capable of passing that info on, and are at an absolute loss as to why in this day and age that information is being wilfully withheld from them - no wonder people get angry. It's just insulting.

Insult the general public at you peril is my message to everyone who works within the rail industry.

And exactly HOW many people will you be prepared to pay for to do this through the farebox? People who will not do much if anything in the ordinary course of events ?

Not much bearing in mind the lengths that people just on here go to towards minimising their fares (not condemning but simply pointing out that there is a limit to how much people will pay).

 

[bluenoxid]

There's only going to be one way of sorting this - BTP must prosecute - even if it's only a handful of individuals. Let them have their day in court and we'll see what the law decides on the merits of the arguments - emergency allegations / false imprisonment versus the negligent actions of ignorant individuals decending onto the tracks, contrary to railway byelaws.

If the TOC loses then there is clearly going to be a cost implication in having to staff up with NR to cover the eventuality of trains at a stand though lord knows what and where this provision should be - and with the bill underwritten by all fare paying passengers - that will no doubt make everyone feel better.

The TOC will lose and the PR response, FATAL to the TOC that does it. :roll:

Just think what the METRO and the Mail will be carrying for days during this trial and remember it is the parent companies that will take the flak, not the passengers (look at the South Western booking office clerk)

Fair to say, the railways have failed yet again to present any sort of reasonable response when a major event occurs. My particular worry, is that if we replaced warm weather, with terrorist attack, what would be happening. Come on TOC's, you must have a major incident plan somewhere and if you don't, it will be you, the managers, who will be having their day in court sooner rather than later.

 

[sheff1]

No one has suggested you can't leave the train in an emergency.

Plenty of people have suggested that very thing.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Plenty of people have suggested that very thing.

Yep, I can understand the frustration but NOT the stupidity