Passengers seem to think Manchester services have already lost conductors

[pemma]

BBC Breakfast was reporting on safety on trains in particular for women travelling alone. They were talking to people in Manchester and a lot of them commented on there no longer having conductors on trains.

Of course no Manchester area services are DOO.

 

[ainsworth74]

They're not thinking about the trams are they?

 

[pdq]

No. The quote was something like 'they don't have guards on. There are train managers and people checking tickets but that's not the same.'

The piece was about women feeling unsafe travelling by public transport at night, so it seems that perception amongst the women interviewed is that there needs to be more of a visible presence of staff at night.

 

[yorkie]

No. The quote was something like 'they don't have guards on. There are train managers and people checking tickets but that's not the same.'

The piece was about women feeling unsafe travelling by public transport at night, so it seems that perception amongst the women interviewed is that there needs to be more of a visible presence of staff at night.

Apart from some 'InterCity' trains with 1st class hosts and catering staff, the trains with the most visible presence of staff are perhaps the Strathclyde electrics, where the staff are always in the passenger saloons and constantly checking/issuing tickets.

 

[pemma]

They're not thinking about the trams are they?

Trams never had conductors in the first place and I doubt all the people they asked are Oldham Loop passengers who recently lost heavy rail in favour of Metrolink.

I think it's more likely they are travelling on trains with conductors but don't see them due to higher passenger numbers, conductors not doing ticket checks on late trains etc.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No. The quote was something like 'they don't have guards on. There are train managers and people checking tickets but that's not the same.'

One person did say that. I think they asked 5 women and 3/4 commented on staff on board in one way or another.

The piece was about women feeling unsafe travelling by public transport at night, so it seems that perception amongst the women interviewed is that there needs to be more of a visible presence of staff at night.

But they spoke to one person after who was sexually assaulted on the London Underground at rush hour, highlighting it's not just late at night when problems can occur.

 

[Tetchytyke]

On the tube, you're more likely to be sexually assaulted in the rush hour, as the sheer number of people makes it much easier for the abusers to avoid detection.

But really we're talking about perceptions of safety, rather than the reality. And the fact that the guards on many Northern trains lock themselves in the back cab at night makes passengers feel more vulnerable, especially if it's a rowdy train.

That's not to blame the guards for doing it- I'd probably do the same- but rowdy passengers and no staff makes one feel more vulnerable. I've felt like that on the late Airedale Line trains out of Leeds, especially on a Friday night and especially when I'm sober.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could perhaps do with some rent-a-thug heavies on those trains? Seems to work for Merseyrail.

Neil

 

[pemma]

On the tube, you're more likely to be sexually assaulted in the rush hour, as the sheer number of people makes it much easier for the abusers to avoid detection.

It also makes it easier for people to claim it was an accident due to the crush loading or potentially for genuine accidents to be classed as assault. If it was a lightly loaded train you won't find it acceptable for someone to be so close to you that they make physical contact with you but on a crush loading train you have to put up with it or wait for a quieter train.

 

[Antman]

Could perhaps do with some rent-a-thug heavies on those trains? Seems to work for Merseyrail.

Neil

That's no way to talk about BTP officers

 

[Ash Bridge]

I think at the end of the day, that this is a general society problem that we have, and people can be victims anywhere not just on public transport, e.g. it's not unknown these days for lone (especially female) drivers to be attacked or dragged from their cars either stopped at traffic lights, or even when getting in or out of the vehicle at the start/end of journey.

 

[Jonny]

On the tube, you're more likely to be sexually assaulted in the rush hour, as the sheer number of people makes it much easier for the abusers to avoid detection.

Or is it because crush loading means that people are so close together that some genuine accidents happen?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm not talking about accidentally brushing your hand against somebody, and nor are the BTP.

 

[Jonny]

No. The quote was something like 'they don't have guards on. There are train managers and people checking tickets but that's not the same.'

The piece was about women feeling unsafe travelling by public transport at night, so it seems that perception amongst the women interviewed is that there needs to be more of a visible presence of staff at night.

I think they expect security guards rather than the traditional railway guard role (primarily responsible for the safety of the train), who doubles up as a conductor.

 

[swt_passenger]

No. The quote was something like 'they don't have guards on. There are train managers and people checking tickets but that's not the same.'

The piece was about women feeling unsafe travelling by public transport at night, so it seems that perception amongst the women interviewed is that there needs to be more of a visible presence of staff at night.

The person being quoted might well have been using 'guard' as a short term for 'security guard'. She might not have meant they don't have 'railway guards', from what she said about train managers etc.

Problem is just because everyone here has an understanding that guard and train manager are the same thing doesn't mean the person quoted thinks the same.

 

[BestWestern]

The person being quoted might well have been using 'guard' as a short term for 'security guard'. She might not have meant they don't have 'railway guards', from what she said about train managers etc.

Problem is just because everyone here has an understanding that guard and train manager are the same thing doesn't mean the person quoted thinks the same.

Agreed, however it would be nice if journalists could take the time to clarify the most basic of facts rather than just quoting mistaken people as though it were informed fact with no attempt at context or explanation...

 

[Bertie the bus]

The person being quoted might well have been using 'guard' as a short term for 'security guard'. She might not have meant they don't have 'railway guards', from what she said about train managers etc.

I wouldn’t have thought so seeing as services around Manchester have never had security guards, therefore she can’t be commenting on their loss. Maybe she has been listening to the RMT’s wibble regarding Northern intending to get rid of guards and how that will mean death and destruction on a biblical scale for passengers, and when she travels and sees nobody because they never leave the back cab assumes the policy has been introduced and sitting in the back cab all journey is the job of a Train Manager.

 

[ringi]

When trains have been joined, often the guard never gets into part of the train.

 

[trentside]

When trains have been joined, often the guard never gets into part of the train.

If there is no gangway between the units, then it's often not permitted for the guard to leave the rear set - I believe local instructions at some TOCs allow them to hop between units, but this is forbidden at Northern IIRC.

 

[Carlisle]

If there is no gangway between the units, then it's often not permitted for the guard to leave the rear set - I believe local instructions at some TOCs allow them to hop between units, but this is forbidden at Northern IIRC.

Why is there a difference on this policy between TOCs ?

 

[185]

The real issue why traincrew are less visible is a serious lack of support from the company management. I get the impression the general opinion of many guards at FTPE and Northern is that:

A - go out after 8pm, get sacked when a drunk/drugged/violent passenger starts a fight/problem
or
B - stay in the back cab after 8pm, at worst get told off for not doing revenue.

 

[Delta558]

Why is there a difference on this policy between TOCs ?

When the rule book was revamped, the instruction regarding this (along with quite a lot else) was left out. The original rule was that if a train was formed of multiple units with no gangway door, the guard was to travel in the rearmost unit in case of fire or accidental train division. To my mind, the reason for the original rule is as valid today as it ever was and for that reason I still follow it (as do many others). What the various TOCs suggest as their 'working practise' is their choice, but I'd rather be in a position to do something if the worst ever did happen.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I just want to endorse this observation:

The real issue why traincrew are less visible is a serious lack of support from the company management. . . . .

(As I've said several times before, I couldn't do that job, and my reason has nothing to do with trains).

 

[ag51ruk]

I wouldn’t have thought so seeing as services around Manchester have never had security guards, therefore she can’t be commenting on their loss. Maybe she has been listening to the RMT’s wibble regarding Northern intending to get rid of guards and how that will mean death and destruction on a biblical scale for passengers, and when she travels and sees nobody because they never leave the back cab assumes the policy has been introduced and sitting in the back cab all journey is the job of a Train Manager.

We used to get security guards on the last stopping train from Manchester to Crewe on a Friday night (not seen this for a while though) - usually two guys in yellow coats who would walk along the train until Wilmslow. It's very rare for the Conductor to mak an appearance on that train.

 

[Carlisle]

When the rule book was revamped, the instruction regarding this (along with quite a lot else) was left out. The original rule was that if a train was formed of multiple units with no gangway door, the guard was to travel in the rearmost unit in case of fire or accidental train division. To my mind, the reason for the original rule is as valid today as it ever was and for that reason I still follow it (as do many others). What the various TOCs suggest as their 'working practise' is their choice, but I'd rather be in a position to do something if the worst ever did happen.

Thanks for the explanation, I also know bus drivers that have lost their jobs through incidents with passangers so I can see why a conductor may decide to avoid that risk sometimes on late trains

 

[hidden]

The real issue why traincrew are less visible is a serious lack of support from the company management. I get the impression the general opinion of many guards at FTPE and Northern is that:

A - go out after 8pm, get sacked when a drunk/drugged/violent passenger starts a fight/problem
or
B - stay in the back cab after 8pm, at worst get told off for not doing revenue.

Not at Northern, certainly not at my depot.

I understand TPE however have more pressures placed on them.

 

[AndyPJG]

When the rule book was revamped, the instruction regarding this (along with quite a lot else) was left out. The original rule was that if a train was formed of multiple units with no gangway door, the guard was to travel in the rearmost unit in case of fire or accidental train division. To my mind, the reason for the original rule is as valid today as it ever was and for that reason I still follow it (as do many others). What the various TOCs suggest as their 'working practise' is their choice, but I'd rather be in a position to do something if the worst ever did happen.

What's the position then if the guard on a gangwayed unit happens to be in the front part if it were to accidentally split?

 

[the sniper]

What's the position then if the guard on a gangwayed unit happens to be in the front part if it were to accidentally split?

Oh dear, would be the position at the time. The position a couple of days later no doubt would be the TOC bringing out an instruction that the Guard should work the train from the rear unit...

 

[Springs Branch]

If there is no gangway between the units, then it's often not permitted for the guard to leave the rear set - I believe local instructions at some TOCs allow them to hop between units, but this is forbidden at Northern IIRC.

So if:
- I travel between two typical stations in Northern-land, which have no TVM and either no ticket office, or an office that closes at lunchtime (& all day weekends).
- My train is formed of two units,
- I happen to choose to travel in the front unit,

then I get free travel with no possibility of a £80 penalty "admin fee" because the TOC has provided me with no opportunity to buy a ticket anywhere on my journey?

 

[BestWestern]

What's the position then if the guard on a gangwayed unit happens to be in the front part if it were to accidentally split?

The position would be that the brakes come in and both units likely come to a swift stop a few feet from each other, the Guard would jump down and walk to the back portion to let the punters know what's happened. The only time you should have a major drama is if the EBS has been raised, which knocks out the automatic braking ability, in which case the Guard is then expected to move pax to the front end anyway, where possible, and travel in the rear unit with the parking brake within grabbing distance! I've no idea what a DOO bod is supposed to do; read from the DOO(P) bible I presume; 'and God said cross your fingers and hope for a smooth journey, for there is sod all in the way of help for anybody if owt goes wrong...'

 

[pemma]

So if:
- I travel between two typical stations in Northern-land, which have no TVM and either no ticket office, or an office that closes at lunchtime (& all day weekends).
- My train is formed of two units,
- I happen to choose to travel in the front unit,

then I get free travel with no possibility of a £80 penalty "admin fee" because the TOC has provided me with no opportunity to buy a ticket anywhere on my journey?

If you arrive at Piccadilly platforms 10/11/13/14 they would expect you to go to the little ticket stall before the RPIs at the doors to platforms 10/11 opposed to approach the RPIs ticket-less.

On occasions conductors tell passengers boarding at unstaffed stations to board the rear train. I'm not sure what they'd say if someone refused on the basis that they want to sit with someone already on the front train. On two occasions where it's happened to me I already had a ticket and the evil conductor has made me board a Pacer when the other train was a 150 on one occasion and a 156 on the other.