Passing Through Zone 1 on a 2-5 Travelcard

[themeone]

When the "new" Shoreditch station opened I admit to being a bit miffed that it was in Zone 1. I've a vague memory that it was originally going to be Z2 but then there was a change of heart (don't know if anyone can confirm that?). However, it is true to say it does belong in Z1 according to the old bus zones.

In practice though it's worked out fine - if I'm working with clients in the City I often go to either Shadwell or Whitechapel and walk. For example, it's about a 20-25 minute walk from Shadwell to the Gherkin, and about the same from Whitechapel to the Bishopsgate area.

Interesting idea about going via Clapham Junction to get to Haggerston, though probably won't explore it next weekend due to time.

 

[MikeWh]

When the "new" Shoreditch station opened I admit to being a bit miffed that it was in Zone 1. I've a vague memory that it was originally going to be Z2 but then there was a change of heart (don't know if anyone can confirm that?). However, it is true to say it does belong in Z1 according to the old bus zones.

LOROL wanted it to be in zone 2 but it is too close to Liverpool Street. Anyone commuting from GA or the Central Line via Stratford would simply switch at Mile End and Whitechapel and save a fortune.

Interesting idea about going via Clapham Junction to get to Haggerston, though probably won't explore it next weekend due to time.

It won't work! Alternative fares have to be present in the database to be charged and this one isn't. Generally the system will let you go a little more than 180 degrees round the outer London line, but from Clapham Junction that runs out at Dalston Junction/Kingsland.

 

[RichardN]

So does that mean I was strictly speaking not allowed to go to Hoxton via the NLL with my paper 2-6 season?

 

[yorkie]

So does that mean I was strictly speaking not allowed to go to Hoxton via the NLL with my paper 2-6 season?

Your Zone 2-6 Season is not valid at, or via, Zone 1 (including Shoreditch High St). The holder of a Travelcard issued on paper needs to buy a ticket to cover that section (as advised earlier by Hairyhandedfool).

The holder of a Travelcard issued on Oyster will pay either a lot less, or in some cases nothing, but they do need to ensure they touch in/out correctly and have sufficient PAYG balance to cover any charges.

 

[RichardN]

I didn't go via zone 1... I went via CJ and Highbury and Islington.

 

[maniacmartin]

You can do that, but you will be charged extra, as the system has no fare defined for such a cumbersome route. You can call the Oyster helpline after the journey to get the charge reimbursed.

It sounds like a very long route route though!

 

[richw]

It won't work! Alternative fares have to be present in the database to be charged and this one isn't. Generally the system will let you go a little more than 180 degrees round the outer London line, but from Clapham Junction that runs out at Dalston Junction/Kingsland.

Will it not even work if tap out and back in at the changing point? His travelcard covers the journeys required, so shouldn't incur additional cost?

 

[PermitToTravel]

So does that mean I was strictly speaking not allowed to go to Hoxton via the NLL with my paper 2-6 season?

You were absolutely allowed to do so! The issue is, when using Oyster, that you will be charged for Z1, even if you tap a pink reader, as it's not a route they thought that anyone would be masochistic enough to take.

 

[RichardN]

I was masochistic enough to do that journey twice... The interface between paper and oyster 2-6 is a real pain, Vauxhall comes in handy..

 

[yorkie]

I didn't go via zone 1... I went via CJ and Highbury and Islington.

Your Zone 2-6 Season is valid throghouts Zones 2-6.

The holder of a Travelcard issued on paper only needs to ensure they remain within those Zones.

The holder of a Travelcard issued on Oyster may, in some cases, be charged a Zone 1 fare, if they travel by a route for which there is no fare defined for travel via Zone 1. You have stated that touching pink readers means no fare is deducted, but I am not convinced by that, and I believe more testing is necessary. However touching out and back in, can cause your journey to be "split" into multiple journeys, each of which may have a fare defined avoiding Zone 1, resulting in you not being charged.

If you remain within Zones 2-6 and are charged for traveling via Zone 1, then providing you've touched in & out correctly, a call to the Oyster Helpdesk will hopefully result in a refund.

 

[MikeWh]

Will it not even work if tap out and back in at the changing point? His travelcard covers the journeys required, so shouldn't incur additional cost?

Yes, that will be fine as long as each journey has a fare defined avoiding zone 1.

 

[island]

BB21 says its "ridiculous advice."

Reasons, please, for such a bald assertion.

Gaming NR/LO/LUL etc in return for their crap service/crap trains/stupid pricing etc is a citizen's duty. If we, the more politically aware section of society for whom it is obvious that LU/NR etc could be operated in a far more sensible fashion do not do it then we will be stuck with an unsatisfactory transport system for ever. And I think that few forum members would be in favour of that.

The reason your advice is ridiculous is because it recommends committing a criminal offence that could get someone a criminal record and a fine of several hundred pounds.

Nonsensical references to "citizen's duty" have no basis in law and are akin to the arguments of the "freeman-on-the-land" movement.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Furthermore, the suggestion that detection is unlikely is simply incorrect. You would be pretty likely to get caught doing this.

 

[455driver]

Originally Posted by alexjames
BB21 says its "ridiculous advice."

Reasons, please, for such a bald assertion.

There is no need to call BB21 bald!

Oh and the reason is because it would be a stupid thing to do as it would be illegal and anyone taking your 'advice' could end up with a fine and a criminal record if caught! :roll:

 

[transmanche]

LOROL wanted it to be in zone 2 but it is too close to Liverpool Street. Anyone commuting from GA or the Central Line via Stratford would simply switch at Mile End and Whitechapel and save a fortune.

Passengers could have done exactly that in pre-LO days, being that the boundary was 'adjusted' to keep Shoreditch LU in Z2. But only about 1,130 people a day used the station; so if that's the reason given by the powers that be, it seems to me to be a spurious one.

Yes, it would be nice if Shoreditch High St had been placed in Z2; so that we had an orbital railway which was completely outside Z1. But (based on the original zones) Old Street has as good a claim to be in Z2 as Shoreditch High Street... i.e. no claim at all.

I doubt that LOROL have any strong view on the matter, as it probably wouldn't affect their income either way.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You have stated that touching pink readers means no fare is deducted, but I am not convinced by that, and I believe more testing is necessary.

Yep, the TfL single fare finder clearly states that:

Some journeys are charged via Zone 1 irrespective of the route taken.

Which I take to mean "It doesn't matter how many pink validators you touch; if there's no non-Z1 fare defined for the journey[*], you will be charged the via Z1 fare.

* And you can check this by clicking on the 'Alternative fare' option when viewing the results of a Single Fare Finder query.

 

[MikeWh]

Passengers could have done exactly that in pre-LO days, being that the boundary was 'adjusted' to keep Shoreditch LU in Z2. But only about 1,130 people a day used the station; so if that's the reason given by the powers that be, it seems to me to be a spurious one.

(sigh) The old Shoreditch LU was further away from Liverpool Street and not just up the A10 main road. It was also a terminus so had no incentive to be used from the North.

I doubt that LOROL have any strong view on the matter, as it probably wouldn't affect their income either way.

Well in the week that LO services started between Dalston and New Cross/New Cross Gate I had a long chat with LOROL's pricing manager at Surrey Quays. He said that there had been lengthy discussions over the zoning of Shoreditch High Street and that LOROL had definitely wanted to be able to claim an entirely zone 2 orbital railway. We also discussed the lack of pink validator at Surrey Quays in the context of the on-board announcements encouraging people to change there.

 

[transmanche]

(sigh) The old Shoreditch LU was further away from Liverpool Street and not just up the A10 main road. It was also a terminus so had no incentive to be used from the North.

(sigh) I was responding specifically to your comment about "Anyone commuting from GA or the Central Line via Stratford would simply switch at Mile End and Whitechapel and save a fortune". Passengers coming from the north is a separate issue.

The walk from Shoreditch LU to Liverpool Street is about 300-400m longer than the walk from Shoreditch High St LO. So only 4-5 mins extra walking time. If "saving a fortune" was the objective, then surely a lot more people than 11,300 a day would have done it. (And if they didn't want to walk, then jumping on one of the many buses heading along the A10 was also an option.)

So yes, if the powers that be used that as the reason for Shoreditch being in Z1, it's a spurious one.

He said that there had been lengthy discussions over the zoning of Shoreditch High Street and that LOROL had definitely wanted to be able to claim an entirely zone 2 orbital railway.

LO wanting to claim that, I can understand. But I can't see how it makes any difference to LOROL either way.

 

[MikeWh]

(sigh) I was responding specifically to your comment about "Anyone commuting from GA or the Central Line via Stratford would simply switch at Mile End and Whitechapel and save a fortune". Passengers coming from the north is a separate issue.

Perhaps I should have been more specific in my earlier post. GA/Central commuters is an obvious example of potential abstraction. Links to the north add to that, as does the fact that from the south it is now a direct train from Croydon rather than changing at New Cross Gate. All these considerations (and others I haven't worked out or mentioned) contribute to the overall reason why SHS had to be in zone 1.

The walk from Shoreditch LU to Liverpool Street is about 300-400m longer than the walk from Shoreditch High St LO. So only 4-5 mins extra walking time. If "saving a fortune" was the objective, then surely a lot more people than 11,300 a day would have done it. (And if they didn't want to walk, then jumping on one of the many buses heading along the A10 was also an option.)

Well everyone has their cut off point and I expect an extra 5 minutes walk took the option beyond many people. The Old Shoreditch was not on the A10, but I'm not an expert in historical bus services so I don't know if there was a bus direct to Liverpool Street. If there was it probably wasn't as frequent as the variety of buses currently plying the A10.

So yes, if the powers that be used that as the reason for Shoreditch being in Z1, it's a spurious one.

The reason is abstraction of revenue by removing zone 1 from a significant number of people's commutes. My original example was one, but there are several others with the same result. I disagree that it is a spurious reason.

LO wanting to claim that, I can understand. But I can't see how it makes any difference to LOROL either way.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I know who I spoke to and what was said in the conversation. That gave me the impression that they were disappointed with the outcome.

 

[transmanche]

Perhaps I should have been more specific in my earlier post. GA/Central commuters is an obvious example of potential abstraction. Links to the north add to that, as does the fact that from the south it is now a direct train from Croydon rather than changing at New Cross Gate. All these considerations (and others I haven't worked out or mentioned) contribute to the overall reason why SHS had to be in zone 1.

Well quite. I already demonstrated above why Shoreditch High St belongs in Z1 - because geographically that is where it is located.

In your post you gave the impression that the reason given by the powers that be was simply down to large numbers GA commuters suddenly deciding that a 10 minute walk was acceptable in order to "save a fortune" where a 14-15 minute one was not. That would be a spurious reason.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I know who I spoke to and what was said in the conversation. That gave me the impression that they were disappointed with the outcome.

I don't doubt that he was personally disappointed - especially if it was an objective he had worked to achieve. But to LOROL (and their shareholders) i still don't see what difference it would make to them.

 

[GodAtum]

So what was the advice to the OP? Touch in and out as normal and the system will work out the correct fare?

 

[swt_passenger]

According to an FOI response, TfL were required, as part of the ELL phase 2 negotiations with DfT, to put Shoreditch into zone 1 to avoid revenue loss to South Central. There's no mention of the effect on the Liverpool St services at all. This was done when Geoff Hoon was SofS. (2008/09 ish)

...TfL will need to confirm that the new Shoreditch High
Street is in Zone 1 - this reduces the revenue loss on South Central
services as a result of the new East London Line, and is the reason why I
can expect to make savings as high as £24m.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/rationale_of_incorporating_shore

The discussion at the time, back when this was first revealed, was that DfT/TfL assumed the route via New Cross Gate would mean that passengers would stop buying London Terminals tickets into, or zone 1 fares via London Bridge.

 

[greatkingrat]

I don't think GA commuters would save anything anyway. A season ticket to London Terminals (for Liverpool Street) is cheaper than a season ticket to Zones 2-6 (for Shoreditch).

 

[yorkie]

So what was the advice to the OP? Touch in and out as normal and the system will work out the correct fare?

Basically, yes.

 

[Wolfie]

I fail to see why you should pay the excess given that you are not setting foot in Z1.

Chances of being caught are similar to those of winning the lottery. I've never seen a RPI on LO. And that is probably because none are deployed at weekends.

Keep your cash in your wallet - there is no equitable argument to support an additional payment for passing through a station that really should not be included in Z1.

I have seen RPIs on LO and Shoreditch High Street is EXACTLY the sort of place they will frequent. The last time I was checked was just outside Stratford which is Z3 but some folk travel through it without Z3 coverage because most of the dlr for example is not.....

 

[RichardN]

Not the case on Southern. London Terminals £3 more per week than 2-6. Experience has shown large numbers of people go to Canary Wharf via Canada Water and save the zone 1 fare. Southern do about as much as they can to make it time consuming to go that way from East Croydon. Not that it would be easy to board ELL trains at NXG if they stopped more fast trains there.

 

[maniacmartin]

My latest 3 trips on the ELL have been accompanied with multiple automated announcements on board saying that you must have a valid ticket or Oyster card or you may have to pay a Penalty Fare, which is a message that I've previously heard only occasionally.

 

[zoneking]

This same argument would apply to London Underground, I presume, which has many more routes which travel via Zone 1 (eg Vauxhall to Finsbury Park). Ticket inspectors are even rarer on LU, especially on very crowded trains at peak times . A paper ticket (zones 2-4) could be used to operate barriers either end. An oyster would always charge the full zone 1 fare. I expect in the past many paper ticket holders went through zone 1 without validity.

 

[Wolfie]

My latest 3 trips on the ELL have been accompanied with multiple automated announcements on board saying that you must have a valid ticket or Oyster card or you may have to pay a Penalty Fare, which is a message that I've previously heard only occasionally.

RPIs checking tickets on the East London line between Canonbury and Highbury at 0900 this morning.....

 

[island]

This same argument would apply to London Underground, I presume, which has many more routes which travel via Zone 1 (eg Vauxhall to Finsbury Park). Ticket inspectors are even rarer on LU, especially on very crowded trains at peak times . A paper ticket (zones 2-4) could be used to operate barriers either end. An oyster would always charge the full zone 1 fare. I expect in the past many paper ticket holders went through zone 1 without validity.

A paper ticket could be rejected by the barriers for doughnutting, if the barriers are programmed properly.

 

[Be3G]

I expect in the past many paper ticket holders went through zone 1 without validity.

Yep. I seem to recall that when travelcard seasons first became available on Oyster there was a big hoo-ha over the fact that lots of people's Oysters were ‘faulty’ – where in actual fact, the problem was people with insufficient zones for their journeys were getting charged a PAYG fare on an empty balance, at which point the Oyster would stop working until the debt was settled.