Pay gap reporting

[Emmsie]

Some of the issue is that young women just don't consider certain industries and therefore don't do the required A levels. My son went to a single sex school that welcomed girls into the 6th form. There was only 3 girls in his maths class, 1 in his Economics class and none in his Physics or Chemistry class, the vast majority of them did English, Psychology etc and this was only 5 years ago. They are immediately out of the picture for engineering degrees and a host of other industries. As a qualified commercial pilot it saddens me that women are sometimes their own worse enemies. I am a little brutal as I have very little sympathy in this day and age, there has never been more opportunities for women.
I didn't come acrooss much sexism when I trained 28 years ago apart from the chief pilot which was a little tricky but I used it to make me a better pilot so in a perverse way I am grateful to him for being a tosser.

 

[deltic]

I agree in part - but it is also the case that parents and teachers also continue to push boys and girls into different subjects - my teenage daughter is often told at school to consider a career in health in which she has no interest while you often hear parents pushing their daughters in the same direction.

Some decades ago I helped judge a business event at an all girls school - the (male) headteacher asked what I did - on telling him I'm an economist his response was that's no career for a girl too mathematical! While thankfully a less common attitude its one that is still too prevalent.
In some ways the campaigns aimed at girls to take STEM subjects may be better targeted at their parents and teachers.

 

[Emmsie]

I agree in part - but it is also the case that parents and teachers also continue to push boys and girls into different subjects - my teenage daughter is often told at school to consider a career in health in which she has no interest while you often hear parents pushing their daughters in the same direction.

Some decades ago I helped judge a business event at an all girls school - the (male) headteacher asked what I did - on telling him I'm an economist his response was that's no career for a girl too mathematical! While thankfully a less common attitude its one that is still too prevalent.
In some ways the campaigns aimed at girls to take STEM subjects may be better targeted at their parents and teachers.

I came across the same attitude when I was at school. I wanted to be a pilot from the age of 10 but was told by a female careers advisor to think about being an 'air hostess' I persevered and did it regardless and in all honesty there is a part of me that thinks if you haven't got the drive to do something regardless of opinion then its probably the wrong route anyway, harsh I know but I managed 28 years ago. My son was in an independent school and pratically all the girls came from a GDST school so I was surprised that they wanted to switch to an all boy school and then not take full advantage of the opportunity.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I agree in part - but it is also the case that parents and teachers also continue to push boys and girls into different subjects - my teenage daughter is often told at school to consider a career in health in which she has no interest while you often hear parents pushing their daughters in the same direction.

Some decades ago I helped judge a business event at an all girls school - the (male) headteacher asked what I did - on telling him I'm an economist his response was that's no career for a girl too mathematical! While thankfully a less common attitude its one that is still too prevalent.
In some ways the campaigns aimed at girls to take STEM subjects may be better targeted at their parents and teachers.

As someone who works in a very large secondary school, I'm pleased to say that I don't see that attitude amongst teaching staff who will try to find out what students want to do and guide them to the right subject options that will help them on their way to their chosen career choice. Clearly there has to be some realism based on a students ability in terms of academic achievement but that happens throughout life - however it doesn't depend on the student's gender.

As for parents... well sometimes they can be pushy even when little Johnny does't really have any interest in their preferred career choice for him, or he doesn't have the aptitude for it. At that point its a matter of managing expectations and finding out what he really wants to do!

 

[irish_rail]

We can keep trying to persaude young girls to be train drivers / pilots etc all we like, but at the end of the day where will the next generation of nurses etc come from? Are we really going to manage to persuade enough young lads to take up nursing? Or are we going to continue to look abroad which will become increasingly difficult after Brexit.

The NHS needs all the help it can get and better wages for health care professionals is the answer NOT trying to persuade women to do traditionally male roles just for the sake of it.

 

[MrPIC]

In 2018 we have equality of opportunity under the law, what some of these people want is equality of outcome under the law.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

We can keep trying to persaude young girls to be train drivers / pilots etc all we like, but at the end of the day where will the next generation of nurses etc come from? Are we really going to manage to persuade enough young lads to take up nursing? Or are we going to continue to look abroad which will become increasingly difficult after Brexit.

The NHS needs all the help it can get and better wages for health care professionals is the answer NOT trying to persuade women to do traditionally male roles just for the sake of it.

This isn't about trying to persuade anyone to do anything - although I know what you are driving at. It's just a case of saying to girls (and indeed boys) that they there are jobs out there that they might not have thought about, and that they shouldn't be put off by the fact that it might have traditionally been seen as a male/female dominated career. In all honesty I don't think we will see a stampede of boys wanting to be nurses or girls to be car mechanics, but for those that do we should encourage them.

 

[Emmsie]

This isn't about trying to persuade anyone to do anything - although I know what you are driving at. It's just a case of saying to girls (and indeed boys) that they there are jobs out there that they might not have thought about, and that they shouldn't be put off by the fact that it might have traditionally been seen as a male/female dominated career. In all honesty I don't think we will see a stampede of boys wanting to be nurses or girls to be car mechanics, but for those that do we should encourage them.

Absolutely,

 

[Economist]

I don't know if anyone saw the Jordan Peterson/Cathy Newman interview but for me one of the most important points he made was one being demonstrated here. Any true analysis of pay differences between men and women has to be multi-variable in order for it to be accurate. A lot of the "pay gap" discussion takes place using gender as the only variable, it fails to take into account job title, hours worked, negotiating ability for senior roles etc.

I fail to see why Easyjet and their ilk should be embarrassed by the figures, from what I can tell is they are offering equal pay for equal work. They have plenty to be embarrassed about when it comes to their lack of financing pilot training etc. but that's a completely different story.

 

[Emmsie]

I don't know if anyone saw the Jordan Peterson/Cathy Newman interview but for me one of the most important points he made was one being demonstrated here. Any true analysis of pay differences between men and women has to be multi-variable in order for it to be accurate. A lot of the "pay gap" discussion takes place using gender as the only variable, it fails to take into account job title, hours worked, negotiating ability for senior roles etc.

I fail to see why Easyjet and their ilk should be embarrassed by the figures, from what I can tell is they are offering equal pay for equal work. They have plenty to be embarrassed about when it comes to their lack of financing pilot training etc. but that's a completely different story.

They actually have an iniative to get more female pilots called the Amy Johnson initiative

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I don't know if anyone saw the Jordan Peterson/Cathy Newman interview but for me one of the most important points he made was one being demonstrated here. Any true analysis of pay differences between men and women has to be multi-variable in order for it to be accurate. A lot of the "pay gap" discussion takes place using gender as the only variable, it fails to take into account job title, hours worked, negotiating ability for senior roles etc.

I fail to see why Easyjet and their ilk should be embarrassed by the figures, from what I can tell is they are offering equal pay for equal work. They have plenty to be embarrassed about when it comes to their lack of financing pilot training etc. but that's a completely different story.

Exactly. This has been my gripe about about the the term 'pay gap' in this context. As for pilot training, I think most of the airlines are the same these days and given the huge costs involved, I'm surprised anyone can afford to train as a pilot - male or female!

 

[Economist]

The Amy Johnson initiative was very controversial since it did away with equal opportunity when it came to funding, they'd have been far better in my opinion incentivising more cabin crew to go for the pilot role if they wanted more female pilots. Thomas Cook have just done a "women scholarship" themselves and again, it's very controversial. Both have been received negatively on the main pilot forum and elsewhere.

Ensuring equality of opportunity is democratic but to ensure equality of outcome a certain degee of tyranny is required.

Talking about the cost of pilot training, I know of quite a few at my place who became drivers because of the obscene amounts of money needed for an airline cadet programme.

 

[Emmsie]

Exactly. This has been my gripe about about the the term 'pay gap' in this context. As for pilot training, I think most of the airlines are the same these days and given the huge costs involved, I'm surprised anyone can afford to train as a pilot - male or female!

They go to the US or South Africa, its a lot cheaper

 

[Emmsie]

The Amy Johnson initiative was very controversial since it did away with equal opportunity when it came to funding, they'd have been far better in my opinion incentivising more cabin crew to go for the pilot role if they wanted more female pilots. Thomas Cook have just done a "women scholarship" themselves and again, it's very controversial. Both have been received negatively on the main pilot forum and elsewhere.

Ensuring equality of opportunity is democratic but to ensure equality of outcome a certain degee of tyranny is required.

Talking about the cost of pilot training, I know of quite a few at my place who became drivers because of the obscene amounts of money needed for an airline cadet programme.

I did mine in the US years ago, it certainly isn't cheap but what other job can you do that earns that kind of money and when you're done you're done. Sadly I had a baby and in the interim discovered that sitting in a cockpit for upto 14 hours with one other person was my kind of hell so never pursued it as a career but in my class of 30 6 were female and of the 6 that completed I was the only female so the drop out rate was slightly higher for women.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes I think EasyJet didn't come out too well on the pay gap but that has been put down (for the most part) to the fact that most of their pilots are men and earn much better salaries than the cabin crew and ground staff, many of which are female.

Especially as their female CEO left to become Head of ITV and got replaced by a man.

 

[baz962]

I did mine in the US years ago, it certainly isn't cheap but what other job can you do that earns that kind of money and when you're done you're done. Sadly I had a baby and in the interim discovered that sitting in a cockpit for upto 14 hours with one other person was my kind of hell so never pursued it as a career but in my class of 30 6 were female and of the 6 that completed I was the only female so the drop out rate was slightly higher for women.

If you do it in the us or elsewhere, do you not then have to convert to uk/eu regs. I have an ex colleague that did it in the us and is apparently now doing a conversion at considerable time and cost.

 

[Emmsie]

If you do it in the us or elsewhere, do you not then have to convert to uk/eu regs. I have an ex colleague that did it in the us and is apparently now doing a conversion at considerable time and cost.

It was irrelevant for me as I was a permenant resident but you can do the JAA license in both the US and South Africa which is the European license