penalty fare appeal - chances?

[Bobzilla]

Got fined on First Capital Connect out of Kings Cross (came in via the underground) to Welwyn Garden City for lack of ticket. I had bought one, and have the credit card statement to prove it, but lost/had stolen the ticket en route. Also, had to travel further to Hitchin (severe delays, critically down to the actions of the driver meant that what I needed -car keys for the return journey - had moved from Welwyn to Hitchin), but guard was nowhere to be seen. So no proof of ticket for the bulk of my journey, and no ticket for a short add on.

What chances of a successful appeal against the penalty? In the event, as I was travelling back from Hitchin to Welwyn, I have actually purchase tickets the value of which exceeds the total fare I would have paid had I known about the delays - no mention on the board at KC, and limited info being given on the train. I can prove the purchase of the ticket, and the extension to my journey was a result of the actions of an employee of the TOC.

Genuinely, what chances are there of winning my appeal?

 

[AlterEgo]

Got fined

I appreciate you're new here, so I'll explain that you haven't been fined. Only a court can do that. A Penalty Fare is a disincentive; a charge levied to those people who make a mistake. There are stricter penalties for people who intentionally evade (or attempt to evade) the fare.

Genuinely, what chances are there of winning my appeal?

None. RPSS will decline your appeal with absolute certainty I'm afraid. You were unable to produce a valid ticket when asked. Be mindful that they aren't accusing you of 'fare dodging', they're accusing you of failing to produce a valid ticket, which is a strict liability offence. And they're right.

Sorry.

You may wish to contact FCC having paid, as they may see fit to reimburse you. However, I suspect that is unlikely. My philosophy is 'Don't Ask? Don't Get', so a letter may be worthwhile to their Customer Relations team, even as a speculative effort.

 

[Bobzilla]

I appreciate you're new here, so I'll explain that you haven't been fined. Only a court can do that. A Penalty Fare is a disincentive; a charge levied to those people who make a mistake. There are stricter penalties for people who intentionally evade (or attempt to evade) the fare.



None. RPSS will decline your appeal with absolute certainty I'm afraid. You were unable to produce a valid ticket when asked. Be mindful that they aren't accusing you of 'fare dodging', they're accusing you of failing to produce a valid ticket, which is a strict liability offence. And they're right.

Sorry.

You may wish to contact FCC having paid, as they may see fit to reimburse you. However, I suspect that is unlikely. My philosophy is 'Don't Ask? Don't Get', so a letter may be worthwhile to their Customer Relations team, even as a speculative effort.

Discretion?

 

[AlterEgo]

Discretion?

In layman's terms:

RPSS do not have discretion. They will only render your appeal successful if you can prove you presented a valid ticket - which you didn't.

FCC's Customer Relations do have discretion, hence my advice to contact them speculatively and separately. I would be surprised (pleasantly) if they decide to reimburse you.

 

[Bobzilla]

In layman's terms:

RPSS do not have discretion. They will only render your appeal successful if you can prove you presented a valid ticket - which you didn't.

FCC's Customer Relations do have discretion, hence my advice to contact them speculatively and separately. I would be surprised (pleasantly) if they decide to reimburse you.

Thanks for your help, and I am emailing FCC.

I meant that IPFAS look at whether the Inspector should have used a discretion in my case - the ability to prove that I purchased a valid ticket (admittedly not at the time - the receipt was with my ticket) and the ridiculous delay on the service should arguably have kicked in a discretion.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Thanks for your help, and I am emailing FCC.

I meant that IPFAS look at whether the Inspector should have used a discretion in my case - the ability to prove that I purchased a valid ticket (admittedly not at the time - the receipt was with my ticket) and the ridiculous delay on the service should arguably have kicked in a discretion.

Discretion is a benefit which inspectors can choose to give. It is not a right. As AlterEgo states, it is a strict liability offence, and thus you have committed the offence by failing to present a valid ticket (or permit to travel etc) regardless of who's fault it is.

 

[Minilad]

Thanks for your help, and I am emailing FCC.

I meant that IPFAS look at whether the Inspector should have used a discretion in my case - the ability to prove that I purchased a valid ticket (admittedly not at the time - the receipt was with my ticket) and the ridiculous delay on the service should arguably have kicked in a discretion.

A receipt proves you bought a ticket yes, but not that you bought a ticket that was valid for the journey you were undertaking

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . whether the Inspector should have used a discretion in my case . . . .

I would say that there were alternative and harsher remedies available, and the 'Penalty Fare' is the mildest option.

If it was a £20 Penalty Fare and you are considering putting a bit of time into composing an email appeal and then more time into anticipating a refund, then I'm sorry to tell you that, based on your report here, the balance of probablilities is against your appeal being accepted.
On this occasion, I'd advise you just to put it behind you as soon as you can.

I agree with Alter Ego and ralphchadkirk. If it had been a 'fine' in the legal sense, with the prospects of a conviction, then I'm sure our advice would be more supportive.

 

[yorkie]

What chances of a successful appeal against the penalty?

I'm not sure, I would certainly pay it (you are liable) ASAP however you can still appeal once paid, but it will likely be rejected.

You have been charged the correct amount (in a PF area) for an innocent mistake, and as you admit to having made an innocent mistake, they are less likely to refund the PF. There is no grounds to appeal other than asking for discretion - which the company that collects PFs will not show. FCC might, if you sent all the evidence (take copies) that you have with an apologetic, concise letter.

 

[RPI]

Although the PF was correctly issued in this case, judging by what you have told us, you still have nothing to lose by appealing.

 

[Nick W]

Don't send an email - send a letter as there's more chance of a successful reply.

Are you saying you had a ticket from London to Welwyn, which you used in the barriers at Kings Cross which you then subsequently couldn't find on board the train? Could you have potentially lost it/had it swiped from you while making a phone call to inform someone else of the train delay? Did you later purchase the Welwyn to Hatfield ticket after paying a penalty fare?

If the railway has let you down, and that itself has potentially led to the disappearance of the ticket, you have a higher chance of a success with a letter.

 

[34D]

Don't send an email - send a letter as there's more chance of a successful reply.

Are you saying you had a ticket from London to Welwyn, which you used in the barriers at Kings Cross which you then subsequently couldn't find on board the train? Could you have potentially lost it/had it swiped from you while making a phone call to inform someone else of the train delay? Did you later purchase the Welwyn to Hatfield ticket after paying a penalty fare?

If the railway has let you down, and that itself has potentially led to the disappearance of the ticket, you have a higher chance of a success with a letter.

How long were you delayed by? And can you explain precisely when/at what point it became apparent that you needed to change your destination. Also can you advise the train you were on

 

[RJ]

Although the PF was correctly issued in this case, judging by what you have told us, you still have nothing to lose by appealing.

Time and money by the looks of it.

 

[TUC]

Discretion is clearly used in some appeal cases though. A couple of months ago my son was visiting London and had borrowed my Oyster card, having never used one before. He knew about how to use the card at Underground barriers but when he used the DLR he as puzzled by the lack of barriers. He previously lived in Nottingham and, as you touch in at the tram itself for similar cards there (as indeed is the case on London buses) he assumed the same to be the case with DLR. He ended up with a penalty fare but appealed and explained the above. The appeal was allowed.

 

[AlterEgo]

If the railway has let you down, and that itself has potentially led to the disappearance of the ticket, you have a higher chance of a success with a letter.

Er what?

How have you managed to suggest that the railway may be at fault for this? Clearly this isn't the railway's fault at all!

I suggest steering clear of any references of shifting the blame in any appeal letter!

 

[Bobzilla]

Er what?

How have you managed to suggest that the railway may be at fault for this? Clearly this isn't the railway's fault at all!

I suggest steering clear of any references of shifting the blame in any appeal letter!

Whilst I would agree with you in terms of trying to shift blame, there is at least a very real argument that actually at least a part of this is FCC's fault, and that is acknowledged in the SRA documents on penalty fare schemes, where discretion should be exercised at times of delay.

To answer the questions, and to give a timeline:

17.00 - buy ticket from desk.
17.17 - get to platform, board is still showing 17.22 departure time, no news of delay, none of the inspectors on the gate know of any delay, but train not there.
17.20 - train turns up.
17.25 - message over tannoy appologising for late running (first admittance) but driver stuck outside King's Cross on another train.
17.30 - message that driver is now in King's Cross, so should be on way shortly.
17.40 - still no driver
17.42 - exit train to ask where the f@ck the driver is, only to find him on the platform talking to a police officer, and the idiot 'assistant' on the platform insisting that everyone on the train has been told that the driver was assaulted (read kicked on the platform in a rush), basically insisting that I'm a liar.
17.45 - train finally leaves.

At this point, when I can finally give the guy an idea that I should be able to be there by about 6.10, I call him to let him know that I am going to be late. He then tells me that he can't stay past six, as he's picking his grandson up. We then agree to meet at Hitchin Station.

Ergo, for at least part of the journey, the absence of ticket was a perfectly reasonable result of the unreasonable action of the train driver. I don't particularly want to get into a slanging match (I gather a number of you are current or former employees) but if any of my friends who are lawyers turned up to court half an hour late with the excuse for the judge 'sorry m'lord, one of my clients kicked me, and I decided that the best course of action was to report the matter to the police immediately, rather than at a time that was convenient for you' he would probably be held in contempt.

For the other part, it feels rather like I've been stopped at the exit gate to Currys with my television, and the 'bounder' says 'do you have your receipt for that, sir'? For those about to say that's different, as its an exclusive posession that someone else can't use, whereas they can use your train ticket, its a bit like the bouncer informing me that 'well, someone's stolen one today...'.

I pay heavily enough for theft through inflated ticket prices. I intensely dislike paying for theft when I'm the victim of said theft. Whilst I cannot beyond doubt prove that my ticket hasn't been used by someone else, I can prove that I bought a ticket, that the cost of the ticket corresponds exactly with my claims about my journey, and that they have the records of exactly what ticket was bought (otherwise they are in significant breaches of the companies act rules on record keeping). I can also prove that I used a ticket to get through the barriers (CCTV will prove that). In short, there isn't an awful lot that will show that I didn't have a valid ticket except when asked for it.

As said, I will be writing to the TOC with the relevant documents politely requesting that they refund my penalty fare. I will also be calling BTP back and hopefully get a crime ref - its now been nearly a week. If I had lost it, someone would have picked it up by now, so either it is theft by taking, or theft by finding. Surely a train company wouldn't unfairly penalise a victim of a crime on their own network? (and yes, I do know the answer to that)

 

[Mr Spock]

I have no idea whether any appeal would be succesful but I would suggest thta you take a little more care with your tickets as not only did you manage to lose this one but a couple of days ago you were telling us how you had lost your weekly season.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I am gobsmacked. How can anyone try and blame the railway for a late train when the driver was assaulted and assisting police officers with their enquires??

Tell me, Bobzilla, did you actually see the assault? Do you know for certain that they were only kicked on the platform? If someone kicked me randomly on a platform then I'd certainly be talking to the police as well.

I thought you might have had a chance getting your money back with a grovelling letter to FCC. Now I think your chances are less than Katie Price becoming Prime Minister.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

my friends who are lawyers turned up to court half an hour late with the excuse for the judge 'sorry m'lord, one of my clients kicked me, and I decided that the best course of action was to report the matter to the police immediately, rather than at a time that was convenient for you' he would probably be held in contempt.

Rubbish.

For the other part, it feels rather like I've been stopped at the exit gate to Currys with my television, and the 'bounder' says 'do you have your receipt for that, sir'? For those about to say that's different, as its an exclusive posession that someone else can't use, whereas they can use your train ticket, its a bit like the bouncer informing me that 'well, someone's stolen one today...'.

Perfectly reasonable for the store detective to ask to see a receipt of purchase for a very valuable item, especially if one had been stolen that day!

Surely a train company wouldn't unfairly penalise a victim of a crime on their own network? (and yes, I do know the answer to that)

Yet you think it's perfectly fine for another victim of crime (the driver) to ignore it?

 

[FGWman]

Sorry there is no chance BTP will give you a crime reference.

Also by your own admission even if you had the ticket you had already travelled beyond the your original destination. The whole point of a penalty fare is not to get into these long drawn out discussions.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Whilst I would agree with you in terms of trying to shift blame, there is at least a very real argument that actually at least a part of this is FCC's fault, and that is acknowledged in the SRA documents on penalty fare schemes, where discretion should be exercised at times of delay.

To answer the questions, and to give a timeline:

17.00 - buy ticket from desk.
17.17 - get to platform, board is still showing 17.22 departure time, no news of delay, none of the inspectors on the gate know of any delay, but train not there.
17.20 - train turns up.
17.25 - message over tannoy appologising for late running (first admittance) but driver stuck outside King's Cross on another train.
17.30 - message that driver is now in King's Cross, so should be on way shortly.
17.40 - still no driver
17.42 - exit train to ask where the f@ck the driver is, only to find him on the platform talking to a police officer, and the idiot 'assistant' on the platform insisting that everyone on the train has been told that the driver was assaulted (read kicked on the platform in a rush), basically insisting that I'm a liar.
17.45 - train finally leaves.

At this point, when I can finally give the guy an idea that I should be able to be there by about 6.10, I call him to let him know that I am going to be late. He then tells me that he can't stay past six, as he's picking his grandson up. We then agree to meet at Hitchin Station.

Ergo, for at least part of the journey, the absence of ticket was a perfectly reasonable result of the unreasonable action of the train driver. I don't particularly want to get into a slanging match (I gather a number of you are current or former employees) but if any of my friends who are lawyers turned up to court half an hour late with the excuse for the judge 'sorry m'lord, one of my clients kicked me, and I decided that the best course of action was to report the matter to the police immediately, rather than at a time that was convenient for you' he would probably be held in contempt.

For the other part, it feels rather like I've been stopped at the exit gate to Currys with my television, and the 'bounder' says 'do you have your receipt for that, sir'? For those about to say that's different, as its an exclusive posession that someone else can't use, whereas they can use your train ticket, its a bit like the bouncer informing me that 'well, someone's stolen one today...'.

I pay heavily enough for theft through inflated ticket prices. I intensely dislike paying for theft when I'm the victim of said theft. Whilst I cannot beyond doubt prove that my ticket hasn't been used by someone else, I can prove that I bought a ticket, that the cost of the ticket corresponds exactly with my claims about my journey, and that they have the records of exactly what ticket was bought (otherwise they are in significant breaches of the companies act rules on record keeping). I can also prove that I used a ticket to get through the barriers (CCTV will prove that). In short, there isn't an awful lot that will show that I didn't have a valid ticket except when asked for it.

As said, I will be writing to the TOC with the relevant documents politely requesting that they refund my penalty fare. I will also be calling BTP back and hopefully get a crime ref - its now been nearly a week. If I had lost it, someone would have picked it up by now, so either it is theft by taking, or theft by finding. Surely a train company wouldn't unfairly penalise a victim of a crime on their own network? (and yes, I do know the answer to that)

Wow, just wow.

Firstly, I cannot see how the driver is at fault here. Secondly, there is no way you can compare this to either example (court or Curry's) you gave. Had I seen this earlier I would have said basically everything ralphchadkirk has said.

 

[AlterEgo]

This thread has made me laugh out loud.

Please tell me who lost the ticket...(as there ain't any proof it was stolen! How do you know for sure it was stolen? Why would someone steal your ticket but nothing else?)

Thank you. Matter closed.

The railway isn't at fault at all for your failure to produce a ticket. Please stop making laughable excuses as to why it might be, otherwise you'll probably find your appeal goes into the Big Round File in the corner.

 

[Flamingo]

"I'm the customer here. Are you trying to tell me it's MY fault?"

 

[Nick W]

Bobzilla - You may have a chance at claiming the money back, but only if you write a letter with your "head" rather than your emotions. Don't worry - you're not the only one to have got emotional in the topic, and I'd be lying if I said I've never got emotional on the forum.

Structure the letter something like this:

1st paragraph - Start the letter with "you" rather than "I" and highlight the good service that you received up to that day. Then point out that you know this because you're a frequent user of the railway and point out that you've not had any problems before.

2nd paragraph - pointing out concisely that
a) You purchased a ticket before boarding the train and are sure of that because you passed through barriers (assuming this is the case.
b) The train was subsequently delayed (don't mention the reason - or if you do DON'T suggest the railway was to blame for the delay) resulting in your changing trains.
c) You had to buy a new ticket as a result of this because you couldn't be picked up in Welwyn
d) You unfortunately couldn't find the ticket later
e) You received a penalty fare which you have paid in full

3rd paragraph - While I understand that I failed in my responsibility to provide a ticket on request, I feel upset that I had to pay £20 for my simple mistake, particularly given that I feel that the ticket must have dropped out while changing trains or buying a new ticket as a result of the delay. I no longer feel at ease travelling by train on leisure trips in future or recommending First Capital Connect to friends or family.

4th paragraph - Please could you consider whether it would be possible to reimburse me on this occasion. I thank you very much for you time, and look forward to hearing from you.

How have you managed to suggest that the railway may be at fault for this? Clearly this isn't the railway's fault at all!

Please try to see the arguments from the other side.

 

[AlterEgo]

Nick W:

Your draft idea is mostly sound, but:

- I no longer feel at ease travelling by train on leisure trips in future or recommending First Capital Connect to friends or family.

Do not include this.

It is irrelevant and frankly whoever is reading the letter won't have much sympathy with someone who "no longer feels comfortable" with using trains after losing their ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Please try to see the arguments from the other side.

I have seen the argument, and I laughed at it. The customer lost his ticket, or had it stolen. This is nothing to do with the railway, is it?

Please explain in plain English how the railway is at fault.

 

[455driver]

"I'm the customer here. Are you trying to tell me it's MY fault?"

No Sir, I am merely stating it isnt our fault!

Basically you "lost" a ticket for part of your journey and were PFed for not having a ticket (or combination of tickets) for your entire journey, the fact you didnt have a ticket for your complete journey is enough for you to PFed, the "lost" ticket isnt really relevant.

Basically pay up because I cant see any appeal being successful because none of your reasons are valid for not having a ticket.
As for your throw away comment about the train driver being assaulted, maybe you could let some off us know where you work and we can nip round and "assault" you while you are doing your job, you can bet your bottom dollar the main part of the delay wasnt the drivers fault but the pax just look for the first person to blame and never let the truth get in the way of a good moan!!

 

[34D]

c) You had to buy a new ticket as a result of this because you couldn't be picked up in Welwyn
d) You unfortunately couldn't find the ticket later

There was no second ticket, as the change in destination became necessary after departure from Kings Cross (if I've followed correctly)

 

[jon0844]

If your plans changed and you didn't have the right ticket, a PF seems fair enough. Unfortunately there's no guard, and the only 'chance' you had was finding an RPI before you passed WGC.. and obviously still holding your original ticket.

If you asked for an extension before going beyond your ticket validity, I am sure most (if not all) would oblige.

As it stands, you couldn't show a ticket and didn't even have a valid ticket if you had found it, so £20 seems like nothing worth complaining about. Pay it and it's over. Move on.

Sadly, had you held the original ticket you may have been able to claim some money back for the delay and possibly had a case to appeal on the grounds that the delay forced you to change your travel plans, but there was no time to get a new ticket and there was no way to pay on board. But that didn't happen so you can't!

By all means write a polite email or letter and try your luck; nothing ventured, nothing gained... but I think that from that earlier rant attacking the driver, the police, the railway and so on is not the best move. A delay is unfortunate, but if seems like it was caused by another member of the public, not the railway. Maybe find out who that was and take out a civil claim for damages against them!!!

 

[Nick W]

Nick W:

Your draft idea is mostly sound, but:

Do not include this.

It is irrelevant and frankly whoever is reading the letter won't have much sympathy with someone who "no longer feels comfortable" with using trains after losing their ticket.

Fair point - I meant they wouldn't feel comfortable knowing that by simply losing a ticket they've incurred a large penalty.

Must admit I sometimes walk into Sainsbury's with items I've bought from there before (often because I've bought something). If one day I got charged with shoplifting because I'd lost the receipt I wouldn't feel comfortable shopping there.

I have seen the argument, and I laughed at it. The customer lost his ticket, or had it stolen. This is nothing to do with the railway, is it?

Please explain in plain English how the railway is at fault.

I didn't say they were at fault. I said the railway had created circumstances in which the OP was more likely to lose their tickets because of the train delay. Having had more information from the OP, it now seems that the railway wasn't responsible for the delay. However in the circumstances, I feel they should refund the passenger if he can demonstrate that he's paid.

Also by making tickets "losable", the railway has to take some responsibility. On megabus, I'd just find the email on my phone. Travelling long-haul the boarding pass could be printed for free. (With ryanair it costs a lot I realise but at least you can print out as many as you like.) With Oyster you can report the card missing and reclaim your credit.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Also by making tickets "losable", the railway has to take some responsibility.

Really? So it's Tesco's fault if I loose my club card? It's my employers fault if I loose my payslip? Where does personal responsibility come in? It's nobodies fault but my own if I loose my ticket, and trying to pin some of the blame on the railway is, frankly, childish.

 

[Bobzilla]

I have no idea whether any appeal would be succesful but I would suggest thta you take a little more care with your tickets as not only did you manage to lose this one but a couple of days ago you were telling us how you had lost your weekly season.

Has sir considered that the two events might in any way be connected?

I am gobsmacked. How can anyone try and blame the railway for a late train when the driver was assaulted and assisting police officers with their enquires??[\Quote]

I have absolutely no idea, Ralph, how anyone could possibly blame an organisation for a delay when one of their employees caused it by the timing of their discussions with police officers. Would it really have made any difference whatsoever if the assault had been reported later? Would the police have been able to find the person who did it on an already over-crowded train? Would CCTV evidence not have assisted them at all one it?

Tell me, Bobzilla, did you actually see the assault? Do you know for certain that they were only kicked on the platform? If someone kicked me randomly on a platform then I'd certainly be talking to the police as well.[\QUOTE]

No, yes, and fair enough. I too would be talking to the police. However, I would be more considerate in my timing of talking to the police, especially if I had an important engagement to get to. Or is driving a train not an important and responsible position (Bob Crow's words, paraphrased).

Perfectly reasonable for the store detective to ask to see a receipt of purchase for a very valuable item, especially if one had been stolen that day!

But then to proceed to a civil recovery scheme that charges twice the price when there is clear evidence that actually the valuable item has been purchased? In my view, this is nothing more than legitimised theft, and there are no other industries where this sort of thing would even be contemplated, let alone legislated for (see the recent problems with wheel clamping).

Yet you think it's perfectly fine for another victim of crime (the driver) to ignore it?

Suggest you read my posts. Never said ignore it. Merely suggested that he picked a more convenient and sensible time to talk to the police.

Also by your own admission even if you had the ticket you had already travelled beyond the your original destination. The whole point of a penalty fare is not to get into these long drawn out discussions.

SRA Penalty Fare policy document, May 2002, Para.4.30. Severe disruption, ergo discretion. If I can prove I had a ticket (and succeed on that point) discretion should be shown in respect of the extension. Note that there is no requirement that it is the railway's fault.

http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/penaltyfarepolicy.swf

This thread has made me laugh out loud.

That's nice dear. I'm glad I can provide some entertainment for you.

Please tell me who lost the ticket...(as there ain't any proof it was stolen! How do you know for sure it was stolen? Why would someone steal your ticket but nothing else?)

You're sure it wasn't stolen? Perhaps if the ticket was in a ticket wallet in a coat pocket? Only thing of any value that is not directly on my person? My fault for not putting it in my trouser pockets, but I was incredibly stressed at the time because of the severe delays and over-crowding. Suffering from a form of claustrophobia doesn't help with that one.

The railway isn't at fault at all for your failure to produce a ticket. Please stop making laughable excuses as to why it might be, otherwise you'll probably find your appeal goes into the Big Round File in the corner.

Never said it was. What I said was that it is riduculous that the railway can charge me a penalty fare (i.e. a fare which is a penalty for not purchasing a ticket) when I have bought a ticket. I have no truck with the fact that the rules are written in terms of being able to produce a ticket. My suggestion is that this is a ridiculous situation to be actually charged one. Charging in this situation brings the rules into disrepute, and actually weakens the moral arguments as to the existence of the scheme.

It is irrelevant and frankly whoever is reading the letter won't have much sympathy with someone who "no longer feels comfortable" with using trains after losing their ticket.

Not just uncomfortable using for leisure. Given the above inflation (and RPI at that) price rises (what other monopoly is allowed to set prices based on inflation?), delays, penalty fares, overcrowding etc, I just don't want to use the railways at all. I would rather commute the 55 miles to work by motorbike, even through London traffic. In short, I think the railways are a bunch of arse.

Basically you "lost" a ticket for part of your journey and were PFed for not having a ticket (or combination of tickets) for your entire journey, the fact you didnt have a ticket for your complete journey is enough for you to PFed, the "lost" ticket isnt really relevant.

Read the rules. Your policy should include discretions for all passengers at times of severe disruption. If it doesn't it is probably invalid.

As for your throw away comment about the train driver being assaulted, maybe you could let some off us know where you work and we can nip round and "assault" you while you are doing your job, you can bet your bottom dollar the main part of the delay wasnt the drivers fault but the pax just look for the first person to blame and never let the truth get in the way of a good moan!!

Actually, half the initial delay was the train drivers fault. The fact that the disruption added another delay of 50% of journey time by the time we hit Hitchin is not the drivers fault, and neither were the initial delays. Please come round and try and assault me. I can assure you that at least some of you won't be walking home, and the rest of you will find yourself up on charges. However, if I am only lightly assaulted, I would be still going to the client meeting I had to leave for then, and reporting the assault at a more convenient time. The only time when I would be reporting there and then is if I had arrested one of you. Or you needed an ambulance.

If your plans changed and you didn't have the right ticket, a PF seems fair enough. Unfortunately there's no guard, and the only 'chance' you had was finding an RPI before you passed WGC.. and obviously still holding your original ticket.

My plans didn't change. That's my choice. The delays changed my plans.

Really? So it's Tesco's fault if I loose my club card?

Tesco replace your clubcard if you lose it.

It's my employers fault if I loose my payslip?

No, but your payslip itself is of no value. If you mean paycheck, then its still not your employers fault, but they will cancel the check, and issue you a new one. Are you seeing a pattern here regarding intangible property represented by a physical slip? Same with share sertificates, corporate bonds etc.

Where does personal responsibility come in? It's nobodies fault but my own if I loose my ticket, and trying to pin some of the blame on the railway is, frankly, childish.

I'm not disputing personal responsibility. What I'm saying is that a penalty fare in these circumstances is not fair or right. The reason that I have been issued with a penalty fare, and not any of the more stringent penalties, is because any of those would be laughed out of court. The penalty fare regime has been introduced as a short-cut to protect revenues on the railways and avoid the hassle and expense of court time prosecuting fare dodgers. Yet FCC have used it to fine (yes, it is a fine, and its also potentially an unenforceable liquidated damages clause, look it up) a fare paying customer. Fantastic advertisement.

I came in here looking for some intelligent discussion. Thank you to those who have provided. Its a sad indictment on the rest of you, and (on the not unreasonable assumption that a whole bunch of you are railwaymen) on your professions. You have a monopoly. You also have the most heavily unionised 'profession' in the country. Use these wisely, or you might just find that you are all dragged kicking and screaming into the modern age, and things change very quicly indeed. I personally would see full privatisation of the railways - track is leased to a number of different companies, so no one carrier has a monopoly over any particular route. I think we would see a very different railway under those circumstances.

I am now going to take steps to delete my account, as I have no desire to continue to try and talk sense to a bunch of seriously entrenched dinosaurs. You think that you are right. I think that even if you are right, you shouldn't be. I venture to suggest that there are more customers than employees.